Sorcerers and Wizards, lets change em!

[Crothian]

While looking through some of my stuff, I have a system sort of like what you are doing. I borrowed it from the WoT book.

Overcasting: This is the ability to cast spells after you have used your spells. This is a full round action. This is done one of two ways. You can try to cast cantrips, 1st and 2nd level spells even after you have used all of you allotted spells per day. Or you can use a lower level spell slot to cast a higher-level spell. Both attempt require a concentration check. A failed check means the spell did not happen and you need to make a fortitude saving throw.

Over Casting Attempt Concentration DC Fortitude DC
Cast Cantrips with no slots left 15 15
Cast 1st level spell with no slots left 21 25
Cast 2nd level spell with no slots left 27 35
Cast Spell one level higher then slot* 21 15+ Spell level
Cast Spell two levels higher then slot* 27 25+ Spell Level
Cast Spell three levels higher then slot* 33 35+ Spell Level

*If the wizard is trying to cast a level of spell he usually does not have access to the concentration and fortitude check is increased by five per additional spell level. For instance if a 5th level mage was using his 3rd level spell slot to try to cast a fifth level spell his checks would be ten higher.

On a failed concentration check, the wizard must make a fortitude saving throw. If the fail saves use the following table to see what happens. The table is based off of how bad the save was missed by. On a successful saving throw nothing happens except the failure of the spell. All penalties are cumulative.
DC Missed by Result
1-5 You suffer fatigue and severe headache. You have a –1 to all attacks, saves, attributes, and skill checks until you rest for a least six hours.
6-10 As above except the penalty is –2. You also suffer 1d6 damage and cannot try to over cast until you rest for six hours.
11-15 As above except the penalty is –3. You take 2d6 damage and cannot try to over cast until you get six hours of rest and twenty-four hours have passed.
16-20 As above but penalties are –4. The damage is 3d6 and you cannot overcast for 48 hours.
21-25 As above but penalties are –5. The damage is 4d6 and you cannot overcast for two weeks.
26+ As above but penalties are –6. You suffer 6d6 damage and cannot overcast.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Hmm comments on the overcasting system first:

It looks like it would work OK for sorcerors but since wizards need to prepare their spellslots in advance, I can't see it having much functionality for them--how could a wizard use his prepared glitterdust to cast a haste spell for instance? Or would you open up spontaneous casting to wizards by allowing them to spontaneously overcast a prepared low level spell into a higher level spell (and would the higher level spell have to be prepared?

Also, I didn't notice the DC of the fortitude save you make if you fail the concentration check. As for the concentration checks though, that's a pretty good set of DCs. Nobody will be automatically making any of those until mid levels and even then, it will not give casters dramatically more high powered spells. You might want to consider banning greater skill focus concentration if you do that though. A dwarf wizard with high con and a toad familiar and greater skill focus concentration could pretty reliably use all of his slots for his highest level spells without too much risk--especially if he had great fortitude as well.

As for the initial suggestion, I think it would take a lot of the fun out of playing wizards. None of the wizards' combat spells would be very useful unless you allowed feats to reduce the casting time to a maximum of one full round (in which case, you'd have vastly overpowered wizards). If you don't do that, you might minimize the effect on wizards by reducing the costs for scrolls and wands and making the DC for a spell from a scroll or a wand the same as if the wizard had cast it himself (rather than the minimum possible DC).

It would most likely vastly increase the power of parties however. At first level, you could expect everyone to be mage armored and riding wizard produced mounts. (And spiderclimbing at need). Secret Doors would be automatically detected as well. When the wizard hit third level, you could expect the entire party to constantly be bulls' strengthed, cats' graced, and enduranced along with any other relevant buffs. At need, the entire party would become invisible. By 5th level, all of the partys' weapons would be enchanted (Greater Magic Weapon) and the entire party would fly. At need they could also become gaseous. When the wizard hit 7th level, you could expect continual improved invisibilty combined with non-detection. You could also expect the party to be able to dimension door anywhere and any time it could be helpful. All of the partys' buffs would probably be empowered as well.

In short, I expect that with your changes, wizards would become highly sought after cohorts but never primary PCs.

 

[Crothian]

Copy and paste never works well, sorry. The first row of numbers is the DC for concentration, the secoind is the fort save for missing the concentration check. Casting a 2nd level spell with no slots left is Concentraion DC 27, Fort save 35.

The system is a little fovorible for Sorcerers and Bards. Wizards would have to try to prepare a higher level spell in a lower level slot when they prepare spells. I wanted to keep the distiction between the Wizard and the Sorcerer as much as possible.

Greater Skill Focus, that from the netbook of feats or something? I'm not familiar with it, and if is from the NBoF, I don't allow them in my game.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Greater Skill Focus, that from the netbook of feats or something? I'm not familiar with it, and if is from the NBoF, I don't allow them in my game.

I thought I remembered seeing a greater skill focus in FRCS--I could be wrong though. Maybe I'm just extrapolating from the Greater Spell Focus and Greater Spell Penetration feats.

 

[Corlon]

Its overpowered

you're right elder, the wizard would be broken like that, but I'm still looking for a way to make no spells per day, because for some reason (which I don't quite understand) I hate spells per day.

Mana, subdual damage, and a bunch of other things can all be used for sorcerers, but the wizard is a bit tougher.

Any ideas on the mana or subdual damage system, and on how to change the wizard?

 

[Magius del Cotto]

Well, here's one system I found that works pretty well for replacing spells/day. The Spell Pool.
Here's how it works: you add your spells per day together, 1 point per level of the spell (IE, a 3rd level spell would be worth 3 points). Then, you cast until you run out of points (as a sorceror), or memorize to the number of points (as a wizard). For 0th level spells, you add 1/2 per slot, then roll a concentration check (DC 20). If you succeed, you keep the slot, if you fail, you lose the slot. Of course, this is just for level 0 spells, so it shouldn't be too overpowering.
You can throw in overchanneling if you want to, but that would just add more work. Overall, I think this is the simplest way to get rid of the spells/day limit without unbalancing the entire game.

 

[Corlon]

hmm, yeah, I guess that makes it a bit cooler, kind of ruins the psions flexibility advantage over the sorcerer, but hey, I don't really like psionics anyway.

 

[Corlon]

of course

its more of the "per day" part I don't like than the "spells" part, thats why I was trying to come up with a different system, but I like yours better than whats already there.

 

[Magius del Cotto]

Yeah. I know what you mean. That's what I like about the SS system, since it puts a practical limit to your spellcasting (subdual damage on a failed save each round after the first), without resorting to set numbers, but at least this system you can explain (you can only handle a certain amount of magical energy each day) without resorting to truly arbitrary numbers (spells/day). I still suggest getting a) the SS Codex Mysterium (gives you all the info you need for the classes and how to determine CTs, 30$ for 197 pages), b) The Everquest PHB (gives you a Mana based system, but no way to determine mana costs, 30$ for 400 pages), or c) Penumbra's Occult Lore (lots of different magic systems in there, 30$ for 238 pages).
Personally, I recommend the SS book, because you can use it to quickly create new spells for your PCs to use, but that's up to you. You can certainly make a workable system from what I've given you (which came from the Grim and Gritty version of WoT, I should add) and existing spells.

 

[Ace]

Well, here's one system I found that works pretty well for replacing spells/day. The Spell Pool.
Here's how it works: you add your spells per day together, 1 point per level of the spell (IE, a 3rd level spell would be worth 3 points). Then, you cast until you run out of points (as a sorceror), or memorize to the number of points (as a wizard). For 0th level spells, you add 1/2 per slot, then roll a concentration check (DC 20). If you succeed, you keep the slot, if you fail, you lose the slot. Of course, this is just for level 0 spells, so it shouldn't be too overpowering.
You can throw in overchanneling if you want to, but that would just add more work. Overall, I think this is the simplest way to get rid of the spells/day limit without unbalancing the entire game.

That works pretty well Magius. My version is very slightly different than that but I do like it.

There is a downside though caster tend to repeat magic missle and fireball, a lot. Especially Magic missle.

That gets very annoying after a while.