Sorcerer's got the Shaft! (reprise)

[Victim]

I think that they're generally balanced, but poor choices early on can really hose a sorc. If a wizard picks poor spells, he can buy scrolls or copying rights. A sorcerer is screwed for life.

I'd rather have sorcerers with the ability to switch out known spells every few levels, so that they can effectively use short term spells like sleep and to allow them to experiment more.

 

[CRGreathouse]

the ability to cast level x spells one character level lower than they know level x spells. I.e., they can cast 2 third level spells at character level 5 but they don't know any until character level 6.

Actually, I really like this idea... it would really help with the discrepancy between sorcerers and wizards on odd levels.

 

[Kosh]

In one of the games I'm in, the DM allows Sorcerers to have "0" spells per day at odd levels before the sorcerer would know any spells of that level... It's worked out fine so far... It allows for more metamagic, which is one of my favorite aspects of the sorcerer class...

We've had two sorcerers played with these rules... Rarely are these spells ever cast, usually as a last resort blast against the toughest enemy... No one has complained about it being unbalanced... And it even adds a little flare...

Personally, I like to use them for Persistent spells... But Chain Haste will be nice, too...

 

[Nish]

the ability to cast level x spells one character level lower than they know level x spells. I.e., they can cast 2 third level spells at character level 5 but they don't know any until character level 6.

I don't see how that's useful; if they don't know the spells, how can they cast them?

You can also use higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells. So a sorcerer with a couple 2nd level spell slots, but with no 2nd level spells or metamagic feats would still be able to get in a couple of extra Magic Missles.

 

[Petrosian]

They play balanced when played well.

sorcerer is a jackhammer.

wizard is a tool kit.

 

[EOL]

Despite some nay-saying early on I got a lot of good ideas from this thread. I especially like the idea of have spells slots of level X but not knowing any spells of level X. I also agree that a few bad spell choices can really hose a sorcerer unlike the wizard. I remember people talking about sorcerers being an introductory spell-casting class, I guess that's true if someone else does all the design work, otherwise they're a very difficult class to play correctly.

Finally I don't care how over-powered someone thinks Sorcerers are, they really do (as was pointed out) need some Charisma-based class skills!

 

[The Furious Puffin]

Balance ;-)

I think it depends on your in-game situation. In hte campagian I am playing/running stand up knock down fights are only maybe once every session, and instead covert wetwork interaction etc forms the body of the game

Sorcerer's tend to come badly unstuck because they have the combat spells required for the infrequent fights, but do not have the range and depth of the wizard's spell selection and class skills. While charisma is a nice primary stat they come across as one trick ponies.

As such I agree with apsuman and think they are slightly underpowered and could do with just one of the fixes he proposes

 

[novyet]

They play balanced when played well.

sorcerer is a jackhammer.

wizard is a tool kit.

This has been my experience as well.

 

[Deadguy]

Too common

I agree with those that say the campaign determines the real strength of the Sorcerer (particularly the Sorcerer over the Wizard). Nevertheless, I do wonder whether the Sorcerer is too good in campaigns that involve a lot of combat. It seems to me, and of course YMMV, that the campaigns I have seen played tend to be very combative and that in those campaigns the Wizard is seen as a liability rather than an advantage. Specific careful spell choices (e.g. polymorph self) can make a Sorcerer nearly as flexible as the Wizard, and basic utility spells are seen as best acquired as scrolls for those occasions when the rest of the party are stumped as to overcome the problem.

Has anyone else had similar experience, or do i just know some weird gamers?

 

[Darklone]

Sorcerers

My experiences: They are balanced IF:
- You don't play with thousands of metamagic feats like FRCS presents. The more feats there are, the better the wizard.
- If you don't bash around stupidly

Sorcerers tend to specialize. In my groups that is. Wizards tend to nothing but power. A good wiz does not lose his edge if there is lots of combat, he uses wands and similar low price things. Why having 12 first lvl slots if you can do the same with three wands?