sorcerers

[Denaes]

ive been useing sorcerers for awhile now and i was thinking that they were to weak of a class compared to a wizard

because wizards get so many spells and so what if a sorcerer can cast spontaneously
they have nothing to barley cast spontaneously

what do u people think?

I think they're greatly more powerful than Wizards, but in a different way.

Wizards have raw power... higher level spells, and just more spells in general. There are spells I won't try to learn because they're too specific... and if I knew them I wouldn't memorize them as utility because I'd never get to use them.

I mean you never want to be stuck in the combat of your lives with a bunch of non-combat utility spells and your fireball & magic missile and Web arn't going to help you much when you need to break into a house... unless you're going to blow the door off it's hinges.

But as a Sorcerer thats, never a problem. If you have the spell and a slot to cast it with, you've always got options to handle things you couldn't have expected you would need. In the same spell day you can go from being Thief Mage to Warrior Mage to Tricky Mage to Utility Mage depending on your needs.

I wouldn't go as to say one is just flat out better than the other... they have their own strengths & weaknesses and I think that overall they're pretty well balanced together.

 

[Thanee]

If wizards can almost always benefit from their ability to leave spell slots open and then adopt to an upcoming situation, then there is no contest, wizards are vastly more powerful than sorcerers.

However, at least in our games, it happens very often, that the precious 15 minutes are not available, and then the sorcerer and the wizard appear fairly balanced with each other.

At higher levels, a well-chosen spell selection gives a sorcerer some useful spell to cast in almost any situation. Sure, the wizard might have the perfect spell, while the sorcerer must do with a suboptimal choice, but the wizard will not always have the perfect spell prepared, in fact, wizards are quite likely not to have the perfect spell prepared in a majority of the situations, unless you happen to encounter similar situations a lot.

The sorcerer also can almost always use the best spell from those amongst the spells known to the sorcerer, there is no need to hold back and preserve a spell for later, since there is usually another one left. The wizard often has just one 'copy' of a specific spell and must then decide to use it now, or save it for later.

I really don't think the sorcerer is underpowered.

If anything, they lack a little in variation. A few more skill points and some bonus feats especially would help quite a bit and also make sense given that they don't need to spend so much time studying magic.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jdvn1]

Funny I have the oposite view. High level Sorcerers with well chosen spells can generally be useful in almost any circumstances.

Sorcerers just don't get enough spells, though.

A Wizard with Wish and Time Stop and Teleportation Circle and Gate and all the 9th level Abjuration spells and all the Symbol spells and all the different Evocation and Illusions spells... I couldn't come up with a list of all the hugely useful spells there are. A high level Wizard like that has many more tricks up his sleeve, and is therefore more useful, than a high level Sorcerer.

And then the many more feats.

And then all the spells from the extra books.

Often, by that point the extra spells a Sorcerer has aren't necessary.

Lots of Sorcerers don't even take spells like Passwall, Daylight, or Gust of Wind. They're not useful enough in a lot of combats to be worth a Spell Known slot. So then what do you do when you find a Prismatic Wall?

 

[JoeBlank]

I loves me some sorcerer fun! Currently playing a 13th level gnome sorc, no prestige classes planned, straight sorc. I never feel like I don't have any spells to cast, and I never run out of spells (although I do try!).

If you want a sorcerer with more skill points and more feats, the best core-rules option is to play a human with a decent INT. Multi-classing is almost always a bad idea, but if you wanted to be extremely versatile then a level of wizard might be fun, giving a broad range of 1st-lvl spells. Certainly not optimized though.

Sorcerers are the masters of metamagic. Being able to apply metamagic feats on the fly makes the sorc even more versatile. You don't have to take a damage spell at every level when you know you can just empower some other spell.

Also when metamagic spells come into play a sorcer has problems since any metamagiced spell he casts takes at least a full round.

Careful not to fall for a common mistake here. Spontaneous metamagiced spells take a full-round action, but they still go off on your turn. Not like spells with a casting time of 1 round, which do not go off until the beginning of your next turn in initiative. I think this belief prevents a lot of people from making full use of spontaneous metamagic, and therefore prevents them from making full use of the sorcerer.

 

[Felix]

A Wizard with Wish and Time Stop and Teleportation Circle and Gate and all the 9th level Abjuration spells and all the Symbol spells and all the different Evocation and Illusions spells..

That's a pretty big assumption that the wizard actually gets all those spells. Sure, he gets two 9th level spells at 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th, but that's still only 8 spells, compared to the Sorcerer's 3. To be fair, you should deck out the sorcerer with all the loot he can buy with the money he hasn't spent buying scrolls from other greedy archmages or ransoming his soul for with powerful fiends.

And then the many more feats.

Wizards make better crafters, but that takes time. And they have to prepare their metamagic ahead of time, or see what it is they need, then spend 15 minutes to get it. Meanwhile, the sorcerer spends one full round action to metamagic any spell in his repitoire.

And then all the spells from the extra books.

Which will cost the Wizard another large boodle of cash, which the sorc is spending on something else that the wizard doesn't have.

Often, by that point the extra spells a Sorcerer has aren't necessary.

Often in a high level game, 1st level spells arn't necessary, but they're still there, they're still nice to have, and they're darned appreciated when they are called for. Same goes for the Sorc's multiplicity of spells.

So then what do you do when you find a Prismatic Wall?

Dimension Door or Teleport to the other side?

8 times. And that's no joke. It takes a wizard what, about 7 rounds to take down a Prismatic Wall -- if he has all those spells memorized. (I never did prepare Gust of Wind on a regular basis) So the sorc can jump back and forth 4 times before the wizard would have taken it down. That'll get most parties through the wall just fine, although scenarios can be contrived where it won't.

Jdyn1, all the spells that a wizard has at his disposal are very useful, when he has them memorized. And when he doesn't, and when he also doesn't have an open slot to spend 15 minutes to fill with the exact right spell, all that spell flexibility counts for bubkis.

The decider on the wizard v sorcerer question is how the DM manages the challenges.
Do you have time to prep? -- The wizard is superior.
Do you "oh my god castsomethingNOW!" -- The sorcerer has the advantage.

And if you have a DM that does half and half, well, then they're about even in the long run.

 

[Denaes]

Sorcerers just don't get enough spells, though.

A Wizard with Wish and Time Stop and Teleportation Circle and Gate and all the 9th level Abjuration spells and all the Symbol spells and all the different Evocation and Illusions spells... I couldn't come up with a list of all the hugely useful spells there are. A high level Wizard like that has many more tricks up his sleeve, and is therefore more useful, than a high level Sorcerer.

And then the many more feats.

And then all the spells from the extra books.

Often, by that point the extra spells a Sorcerer has aren't necessary.

This is the balancing factor between the Wizard & Sorcerer and obviously your preference.

The Wizards get higher level spells, they're able to learn more spells in general, but their casting slots are spread thinner.

Most definately if a wizard had a day to prepare for a specific situation, they would be better suited. Most likely they would have dozens more spells to choose from and they could memorize spells that they would never have memorized on an average day.

Sorcerers have their other advantages, like being able to cast spells whenever they like, no matter what spell. If they have a slot and know the spell, they can cast it. They don't have to worry about prioritizing their spells or making awful memorization picks.

I don't think a game has gone by where the Wizard of the group has said something like "wow, if only I had that one spell memorized" or "If we wait around for a day I can cast a spell suited just for that situation".

Lots of Sorcerers don't even take spells like Passwall, Daylight, or Gust of Wind. They're not useful enough in a lot of combats to be worth a Spell Known slot. So then what do you do when you find a Prismatic Wall?

Wha!? Dude, speak for yourself. I wouldn't take combat spells over utility spells in most cases. Define useful yourself. Sorcerers are the equivilent of Wizards because of their great spontanious versatility, not because they're damage jockeys. Heck, they're equal because they don't have to choose between the two. They can just use utility or combat spells as needed.

You can choose to play your Sorcerer, just like other characters, different ways. Don't judge the class on how specific people play it or against a specific standard. It's all about the overall general utility of the class.

 

[irdeggman]

I loves me some sorcerer fun! Currently playing a 13th level gnome sorc, no prestige classes planned, straight sorc. I never feel like I don't have any spells to cast, and I never run out of spells (although I do try!).

If you want a sorcerer with more skill points and more feats, the best core-rules option is to play a human with a decent INT. Multi-classing is almost always a bad idea, but if you wanted to be extremely versatile then a level of wizard might be fun, giving a broad range of 1st-lvl spells. Certainly not optimized though.

Sorcerers are the masters of metamagic. Being able to apply metamagic feats on the fly makes the sorc even more versatile. You don't have to take a damage spell at every level when you know you can just empower some other spell.



Careful not to fall for a common mistake here. Spontaneous metamagiced spells take a full-round action, but they still go off on your turn. Not like spells with a casting time of 1 round, which do not go off until the beginning of your next turn in initiative. I think this belief prevents a lot of people from making full use of spontaneous metamagic, and therefore prevents them from making full use of the sorcerer.

Poor choice of words on my part either that or the PC typed things incorrectly. You are of course correct on this unless' ' '

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

Now by becoming a full round action (not a 1 round casting time) the sorcerer canonly take a 5ft step in any affected round - so this has the potential for being a problem. On the up side applying multiple metamagic effects doesn't increase the casting time any more than applying a single one - only the spell slot level being used.

 

[Denaes]

I just checked on d20SRD.org about the Sorcerer's spell progression...

I don't know why, I thought they didn't get higher level spells. They actually end up with more casting slots for every level, they're just generally a little delayed in getting access to a level and the number of known spells.

I revise my opinion. They're definately a Wizards equal. They progress a little slower and have less of a repitoire, but generally have more spontanious casting slots.

I'm not going to say one is better than the other due to so many varrying styles of play and the fact that each has benifits over the other... One might be better for your (groups) style of play or concept, but both are great.

 

[JoeBlank]

Now by becoming a full round action (not a 1 round casting time) the sorcerer canonly take a 5ft step in any affected round - so this has the potential for being a problem. On the up side applying multiple metamagic effects doesn't increase the casting time any more than applying a single one - only the spell slot level being used.

I figured you probably used the rule correctly, but I keep hearing about people who do not and wanted to take the opportunity to warn them.

On only being able to take a 5' step, just think of it as your sorcerer taking a full attack action. Same applies to fighter who wants to make the most out his iterative attacks.

 

[Abstraction]

I think that, overall, the sorceror is slightly weaker than the wizard. Still viable and fun to play, but weaker powergamer-wise.

A sorceror has a suboptimal prime stat and poor skill selection to go with it. A sorceror does not get the free metamagic/crafting feats a wizard gets, even though he should be better at metamagic overall. A sorceror has a very poor skill selection and poor feat progression for qualifying for prestige classes. While a sorceror has spell versatility on the fly, that is only true for his lower-level spells. His highest level of spells he has an extremely limited choice and is thus worse prepared than an equivalent wizard. To add insult to injury, a sorceror is delayed in getting higher level spells. This especially hurts having to wait to level four just to get a couple second level spells. With the addition of metamagic rods and sudden metamagic, even the sorcerors forté of spontaneous metamagic is eroded. Although I personally have no great love for Quicken Spell, a lot of people like it but Wizards made the stupid decision that a sorceror can NEVER cast a quickened spell, not even with a metamagic rod.

The worst of it, though, is that sorceror and wizard are really just not distinct enough as cleric and druid. It would be better if sorceror was replaced by a variant like warlock (expanded so it isn't strictly bat/spider/dark/evil) or warmage (expanded with illusionist, abjurer, conjurer, etc. variants).