Soul Bind Vs. Trap the Soul

herald

Visitor
Ok, here's some information first

Soul Bind
Necromancy
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Corpse
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No
You draw the soul from a newly dead body and imprison it in a
black sapphire gem. The subject must have been dead no more
than 1 round per caster level. The soul, once trapped in the gem,
cannot be returned through clone, raise dead, reincarnation, resurrection,
true resurrection, or even a miracle or a wish. Only by
destroying the gem or dispelling the spell on the gem can one free
the soul (which is then still dead).
Focus: A black sapphire of at least 1,000 gp value for every
Hit Die possessed by the creature whose soul is to be bound. If
the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the binding is
attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice
as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be
researched. Remember that this value can change over time as
creatures gain more Hit Dice.)

Trap the Soul
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, (F); see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action or see text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text
Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body)
into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until
the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the
material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful
creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service
immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can
go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken.
Depending on the version selected, the spell can be triggered in
one of two ways.
Spell Completion: First, the spell can be completed by speaking its
final word as a standard action as if you were casting a regular
spell at the subject. This allows spell resistance (if any) and a
Will save to avoid the effect. If the creature’s name is spoken as
well, any spell resistance is ignored and the save DC increases
by 2. If the save or spell resistance is successful, the gem shatters.
Trigger Object: The second method is far more insidious, for it
tricks the subject into accepting a trigger object inscribed with
the final spell word, automatically placing the creature’s soul in
the trap. To use this method, both the creature’s name and the
trigger word must be inscribed on the trigger object when the
gem is enspelled. A sympathy spell can also be placed on the
trigger object. As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger
object, its life force is automatically transferred to the gem
without the benefit of spell resistance or a save.
Material Component: Before the actual casting of trap the soul,
you must procure a gem of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit
Die possessed by the creature to be trapped. If the gem is not
valuable enough, it shatters when the entrapment is attempted.
(While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the
value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched.
Remember that this value can change over time as creatures
gain more Hit Dice.)
Focus (Trigger Object Only): If the trigger object method is used,
a special trigger object, prepared as described above, is needed.

Why is Soul Bind a higher level spell? I'm I confused or does anyone else see a problem with this?
 
Actually, the true name of the target is only necessary if one chooses to use a trigger object (as opposed to simple spell completion).

I suppose one could argue that the gem used for Trap the Soul shatters if the save is made (unlike Soul Bind...although this only applies the spell completion option). But the real reason is this: Trap the Soul is a conjuration spell and Soul Bind is necromancy. As everyone knows, conjuration is always better at dealing with life force and taking it away than necromancy. :D
 

hong

WotC's bitch
What's even more interesting is that soul bind has a Will save. What is the Will save for a corpse? Assuming it even has one, do its buff spells and items still count?
 

herald

Visitor
I doubt that you can buff, or use magic items, your dead. At best, I would guess its a raw Will save. But then again the target is corpse.

Even still, Soul Bind really isn't more powerful than Trap the Soul. I could see Soul Bind as a 8th level spell.

Is it just me or could people see that spell all rolled into one spell? A combined 8th level Necromatic/Conjuration spell?
 

Lamoni

Visitor
herald said:
I doubt that you can buff, or use magic items, your dead. At best, I would guess its a raw Will save. But then again the target is corpse.

Even still, Soul Bind really isn't more powerful than Trap the Soul. I could see Soul Bind as a 8th level spell.

Is it just me or could people see that spell all rolled into one spell? A combined 8th level Necromatic/Conjuration spell?
Let's see... Trap the Soul can only be used on a living creature while Soul Bind can only be used on a dead creature.

I didn't see any reference in Trap the Soul to preventing raise dead, true resurrection, etc. Does that mean that even though the soul is trapped in the gem, it can still be called forth with a true resurrection? It says that it holds it indefinately until the gem is broken and the lifeforce is released. That means if you physically break the gem, the life force is released... but could it also mean that releasing the lifeforce breaks the gem?

Of course that probably doesn't make any sense because Trap the Soul doesn't actually kill the person and you can't resurrect someone that hasn't died. I see the two spells working differently, but the effect is the same... only the target is different. I think that they should be combined into one spell.
 

herald

Visitor
Lamoni said:
Let's see... Trap the Soul can only be used on a living creature while Soul Bind can only be used on a dead creature.

I didn't see any reference in Trap the Soul to preventing raise dead, true resurrection, etc. Does that mean that even though the soul is trapped in the gem, it can still be called forth with a true resurrection? It says that it holds it indefinately until the gem is broken and the lifeforce is released. That means if you physically break the gem, the life force is released... but could it also mean that releasing the lifeforce breaks the gem?

Of course that probably doesn't make any sense because Trap the Soul doesn't actually kill the person and you can't resurrect someone that hasn't died. I see the two spells working differently, but the effect is the same... only the target is different. I think that they should be combined into one spell.
Thanks Lamoni
 
Here's my take on the difference:

Trap the Soul would be balanced as a first level spell (although that might have some interesting consequences for game-world design).

Soul Bind wouldn't because it can target a living creature.
 

herald

Visitor
Elder-Basilisk said:
Here's my take on the difference:

Trap the Soul would be balanced as a first level spell (although that might have some interesting consequences for game-world design).

Soul Bind wouldn't because it can target a living creature.
Um, don't you mean the other way around?

Soul Bind only works if your casing it on a freshly dead corpse.
 

CapnZapp

Hero
Interesting.

Yes, for a spell (whatever its name) with the requirement that the creature must be dead first to me means the spell would be a reasonable level 1 spell for balance purposes, since you must defeat the creature first.

Of course, it very well can't be allowed to prevent Resurrection or Wish in that case. And you might want to up the level somewhat just to put a lower limit on the business of soul harvesting.

But I don't see any huge problems with making such a spell level 4, say, provided the language about preventing resurrection is changed to require the spell to be cast at least at the same spell level as the restorative spell.

So for example, in 5th edition, the spell would indeed prevent Revivify from working. It would have to be cast using a 7th level slot in order to prevent Resurrection.

If we instead use Pathfinder 2, the spell must be heightened to spell level 5 in order to prevent the basic Resurrect ritual or the Breath of Life spell. It would need to be heightened all the way to level 10 to foil a Wish.
 
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Bardic Dave

Explorer
Interesting.

Yes, for a spell (whatever its name) with the requirement that the creature must be dead first to me means the spell would be a reasonable level 1 spell for balance purposes, since you must defeat the creature first.

Of course, it very well can't be allowed to prevent Resurrection or Wish in that case. And you might want to up the level somewhat just to put a lower limit on the business of soul harvesting.

But I don't see any huge problems with making such a spell level 4, say, provided the language about preventing resurrection is changed to require the spell to be cast at least at the same spell level as the restorative spell.

So for example, in 5th edition, the spell would indeed prevent Revivify from working. It would have to be cast using a 7th level slot in order to prevent Resurrection.

If we instead use Pathfinder 2, the spell must be heightened to spell level 5 in order to prevent the basic Resurrect ritual or the Breath of Life spell. It would need to be heightened all the way to level 10 to foil a Wish.
Fifteen year old thread! That might be a new record for necromancy?
 

CapnZapp

Hero
Just trawling the bottom of the forum (when sorting the threads oldest first) would be no challenge.

In this case, I'm having a NPC "Grimslade the Black" offering players gold to harvest select monsters' souls in my Pathfinder 2 xp-for-gp campaign. I then researched which spells there was to base my (low-level) "soul gem" on. The idea: Kill the monster and suck its soul into the gem (Ghostbuster style), then get cash upon delivery of the filled gem back in town.

One googling led to another and here we are. :)

Point of post remains: I can't see any compelling reasons why this mechanism must be particularly high-level in nature. (If the players, whose characters are level 3-4, were given a black sapphire appropriate for level 17(!!) they could just run off and sell it, and bypass all the low-level content)


Z

PS. As for thread necromancy, I'm sure there have been stronger resurrections, but thanks for the vote of confidence :cool:
 

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