Souls-like Stamina and Tactical Play

[Ralif Redhammer]

In Dark Souls, unless you go with some weird build, everyone's stamina is likely to be relatively low compared to HP. It just doesn't go up at the same rate.

Now, if we start talking poise, that's a whole new can of worms.

Would you say the Conan system is modular? Can you drop it into another game with minimal friction? Would it fall apart when removed from the game board?

That's the big gamble, right? If you use all your stamina, will your opponent drop afterward, or pound you while you're exhausted? That's a tactical question I ask myself while playing Modos RPG; with three actions, do I want to all-out attack, or save actions to defend, or save actions to run away?

Another question I ask: does that provide my fix for tactical play, with most characters having the same amount of stamina, and most actions costing the same amount of stamina?

 

[CubicsRube]

Would you say the Conan system is modular? Can you drop it into another game with minimal friction? Would it fall apart when removed from the game board?

I don't see any reason it couldn't. You just need to work out max stamina and recovery for different characters and stamina costs for various activities.

Balancing it would be the hard part.

 

[GMMichael]

I guess we'll get an official answer (Souls announcement) how Dark Souls would do it.

Although with the 5e compatible mention, I don't have high hopes. Seems like they chose marketing over soul since there were more appropriate game-system choices out there. We'll see what the "unique DARK SOULS™ mechanics" are.

 

[GMMichael]

Here's how Steamforged tinkered with it:

Position​

This is, mechanically, the biggest change DARK SOULS™: The Roleplaying Game to the standard 5e ruleset.

In DARK SOULS™, you have your health, and you have stamina. Health measures how close you are to death, and stamina tracks the energy you’re expending on making attacks. Conserving both is essential to success.

Now, 5e doesn’t have anything resembling stamina — and introducing it would require an awful lot of bookkeeping for players and Game Masters (GMs) alike.

Instead, we decided to amalgamate the two into a single value. We call it Position.

Position measures your character health, but it’s also a resource you can spend to tweak a dice roll, or to use special abilities gained from your character class or equipment.

Position goes up gradually, as you increase in level, but it’s always finite, and generated randomly at the start of a battle. Using it allows you to do some pretty amazing stuff — but it also makes you vulnerable. Spending it is a big decision, and mastering its use is extremely difficult. Just as it should be!

Sounds a touch like the Cypher System method. Or a lot. The difference between this and the video game, as far as I can tell, is that when you run out of stamina-position, you're a goner. In Souls-like games, you have to go defensive and recover when you're out of stamina - not just accept your defeat.

What do you think about Position?

 

[CubicsRube]

So steamforged are money grabbing hacks to put it bluntly.

They have a history of getting popular IP's and making terrible board game rules that show they don't understand what they are adapting.

I expect this RPG is going to be the same. And position is my example of that. It doesn't strike me as dark souls at all. Not even the name does. If it was 5e but with low hit points and you were able to use stamina to avoid near certain one shot kills I could get a feel for it, but this doesn't work for me.

Incidentally, the board game used stamina and hit point slots and if the 2 added up to you maximum (filled up your player board) then you died. So i think it's very similar to this but combined into one number. It might make easier tracking but "spending hp" to avoid getting hit doesn't have the right feel IMO.

 

[dogoftheunderworld]

For D&D, what if FEAT usage cost "Stamina"? That would mostly be a cost toward Fighters, but if stamina were related to CON (Con bonus per encounter), it could balance out. Spell casters would have fewer feats, so not as affected, but Meta-magic would be more costly. Add a different layer of strategy other than spamming power attack/point blank shot/etc.

(Disclaimer: I am not a game designer. There are bound to be multiple inherent flaws in this idea )

 

[Jd Smith1]

Zweihander uses three Action points per round, but limits a PC/NPC to one attack and one Special action. This gives the player enormous flexibility without a lot of rules. For example, moving costs 1 AP, a called shot attack costs 2 AP, basic attack 1 AP, aiming adds +10% per AP spent, and so forth, for a total of 23 options. In addition, a PC or NPC can save an AP to Parry or Dodge an attack, use a Counterspell, or assist a player lower down on the imitative track.

There is an ability available to PCs who choose a specific path to get a fourth AP, but this AP can only be used for Parry, Dodge, or Counterspell.

My players love it; combat becomes incredibly tactical with no book-keeping. I cut & pasted the AP costs from the manual (one page) as a handy cheat sheet, and combat is fast, brutal, and far more player-decision-centric.

 

[CubicsRube]

Zweihander uses three Action points per round, but limits a PC/NPC to one attack and one Special action. This gives the player enormous flexibility without a lot of rules. For example, moving costs 1 AP, a called shot attack costs 2 AP, basic attack 1 AP, aiming adds +10% per AP spent, and so forth, for a total of 23 options. In addition, a PC or NPC can save an AP to Parry or Dodge an attack, use a Counterspell, or assist a player lower down on the imitative track.

There is an ability available to PCs who choose a specific path to get a fourth AP, but this AP can only be used for Parry, Dodge, or Counterspell.

My players love it; combat becomes incredibly tactical with no book-keeping. I cut & pasted the AP costs from the manual (one page) as a handy cheat sheet, and combat is fast, brutal, and far more player-decision-centric.

I was tempted for a short while to try PF2e because of the action point economy, but then they integrated about 10 million feats into the core structure.

Sounds like I should look at zweihander.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I was tempted for a short while to try PF2e because of the action point economy, but then they integrated about 10 million feats into the core structure.

Sounds like I should look at zweihander.

It is good. WE use it online, via Roll20, and the PC sheet there is fully automated.

 

[GMMichael]

For D&D, what if FEAT usage cost "Stamina"? That would mostly be a cost toward Fighters, but if stamina were related to CON (Con bonus per encounter), it could balance out. Spell casters would have fewer feats, so not as affected, but Meta-magic would be more costly. Add a different layer of strategy other than spamming power attack/point blank shot/etc.

Given that feats are optional, this might make stamina optional too. What about a trade-off... you start each round with +5 AC. Each time you do something in combat, you lose 1 point of bonus (act, react, move, bonus act, saving throw?). Or, lose 1 point of proficiency?

Zweihander uses three Action points per round, but limits a PC/NPC to one attack and one Special action. This gives the player enormous flexibility without a lot of rules. For example, moving costs 1 AP, a called shot attack costs 2 AP, basic attack 1 AP, aiming adds +10% per AP spent, and so forth, for a total of 23 options. In addition, a PC or NPC can save an AP to Parry or Dodge an attack, use a Counterspell, or assist a player lower down on the imitative track.

I'm a fan of the three-strikes round. It really does add flexibility. The key to making it Souls-like is that defense must cost a strike too - which excludes the PF2 system, as far as I know.