Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk

[freyar]

Yeah, that will do it. Looks good. Then I'm ready for the true drakanthropes.

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, that will do it. Looks good. Then I'm ready for the true drakanthropes.

Likewise.

Can either of us remember where we were with the conversion?

 

[freyar]

I believe we were still sorting out how to deal with ability adjustments, sizes, etc. If I've picked the right posts (#1294 to 1299 or thereabouts), the latest proposal is to use wyrmling stats to create the weredragon but allow advancement either by character level or additional true dragon HD, which can also lead to hybrid/dragon form size increases, etc.

 

[Cleon]

I believe we were still sorting out how to deal with ability adjustments, sizes, etc. If I've picked the right posts (#1294 to 1299 or thereabouts), the latest proposal is to use wyrmling stats to create the weredragon but allow advancement either by character level or additional true dragon HD, which can also lead to hybrid/dragon form size increases, etc.

Yes, I remember that, but we'd use the racial modifiers of the Half-Dragon template as a minimum (i.e. Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2).

Repurposing the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft to that would be:

Abilities: All weredragons gain +2 to Intelligence, +2 to Wisdom and +2 to Charisma.​

​

In addition, when in hybrid form, a weredragon's physical ability scores improve according to its kind. These adjustments are equal to either +8 Strength and +2 Constitution or to the base dragon's normal ability scores –10 or –11, whichever is higher.​

​

A weredragon in dragon form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount unless the dragon form is smaller than the hybrid form, in which case the hybrid form's Strength adjustment is reduced according to the Table: Changes to Statistics by Size.​

 

[freyar]

I like that, let's do it.

Let's settle on attacks next, I guess. Dragon form has the attacks of the base dragon with appropriate age category for the true dragon HD. Hybrid has bite and claw --- we could add others, but I guess that depends on how we go with size. I see the blue text has hybrid the large of the base critter/base dragon sizes, but I think I prefer base creature size. Would that be ok? Hybrid should have the breath weapon, and I'd be willing to go more than once per day (seems like it should be more than a half-dragon).

 

[Cleon]

I like that, let's do it.

Updating the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

We need to modify the Changes to Statistics by Size Table since the true drakanthrope template allows for a very wide range of sizes in Dragon Form.

i.e. Tiny Base Dragon (brass wrymling) and Colossal base creature (mountain giant) for a brass mountain giant weredragon.

I would also allow for the possibility of particularly powerful weredragons whose base dragon stats and abilities are better than Wyrmling, such as a Young Adult Fire Giant weredragon or whatever.

We could do a matrix of sizes (i.e. hybrid form's size in column, dragon form's size in rows or vice versa) or just use size changes; i.e. STR –2 or –4 if one size smaller, –4 or –8 if two sizes and then add another –8 for each additional size change.

It seems more prudent to figure out some extreme cases and back-engineer from there.

So we need to decide on what ability scores are reasonable for the ridiculous extremities like a great wyrm gnome weredragon or wyrmling mountain giant weredragon and figure out a formula or matrix to achieve them.

Let's see, the SRD examples are:

Smaller dragons like the Black, Brass, Copper or White, which start out as Tiny wyrmlings with Strength 11 and go up to Gargantuan great wyrms with Strength 37.

Big dragons like the Red or Gold which start out as Medium wyrmlings with Strength 17 and go up to Colossal great wyrms with Strength 45 or 47.

I vaguely recall there being some extraplanar or spelljammer true dragons which bigger and/or stronger, starting out as Large sized wyrmlings or Medium wyrmlings with Strength of 19 or more but might be misremembering or thinking of non-WotC 3E dragons.

 

[Cleon]

I vaguely recall there being some extraplanar or spelljammer true dragons which bigger and/or stronger, starting out as Large sized wyrmlings or Medium wyrmlings with Strength of 19 or more but might be misremembering or thinking of non-WotC 3E dragons.

I was thinking of dragons from the 2E AD&D Spelljammer sources, some of which are ridiculously big. The Stellar Dragon for example has a 1,200 foot base body length.

However it doesn't have an official 3E conversion, which is why it's on my "to do" list!

 

[freyar]

Updating the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

We need to modify the Changes to Statistics by Size Table since the true drakanthrope template allows for a very wide range of sizes in Dragon Form.

i.e. Tiny Base Dragon (brass wrymling) and Colossal base creature (mountain giant) for a brass mountain giant weredragon.

I would also allow for the possibility of particularly powerful weredragons whose base dragon stats and abilities are better than Wyrmling, such as a Young Adult Fire Giant weredragon or whatever.

We could do a matrix of sizes (i.e. hybrid form's size in column, dragon form's size in rows or vice versa) or just use size changes; i.e. STR –2 or –4 if one size smaller, –4 or –8 if two sizes and then add another –8 for each additional size change.

No, no, wait a moment. We just agreed to use the wyrmling as the base dragon (and that's what we were thinking before). So no need for any complicated tables. If the wyrmling and base creature are more than one step apart on the Changes to Statistics by Size table (which looks like the standard SRD one, right?), just use all the adjustments for all the size steps to get the dragon form Str (or else use the base dragon wyrmling's Str, whichever is larger).

To get a larger dragon form, we agreed to allow advancement by dragon HD. With enough dragon HD, the dragon form goes up in age category and often size, so the Str (and other ability) adjustments change but still follow the same table if necessary. Does that work?

Though I wouldn't mind having a way to boost mental stats with dragon HD faster than usual ability boosts.

 

[Cleon]

No, no, wait a moment. We just agreed to use the wyrmling as the base dragon (and that's what we were thinking before). So no need for any complicated tables. If the wyrmling and base creature are more than one step apart on the Changes to Statistics by Size table (which looks like the standard SRD one, right?), just use all the adjustments for all the size steps to get the dragon form Str (or else use the base dragon wyrmling's Str, whichever is larger).

To get a larger dragon form, we agreed to allow advancement by dragon HD. With enough dragon HD, the dragon form goes up in age category and often size, so the Str (and other ability) adjustments change but still follow the same table if necessary. Does that work?

I think we're both on the same page with this.

Let's write out the mechanics and make sure.

I'm still a bit leery as to how the ability modifiers of an ancient dragon and a giant will stack up, but then that's always a problem with the 3E approach to Lycanthropes.

Though I wouldn't mind having a way to boost mental stats with dragon HD faster than usual ability boosts.

What, so a frost giant Great Wyrm White Weredragon would get the base dragon +8 INT, WIS, CHA but less than its +26 STR, +18 CON?

Isn't that what I was worrying about above!?

 

[freyar]

Sounds good on the physical ability scores. I await your write up!

At the moment, we have "All weredragons gain +2 to Intelligence, +2 to Wisdom and +2 to Charisma." On one hand, it makes sense that perhaps the lycanthropy only changes physical abilities based on the age category of the base dragon. On the other, why not get more in the way of mental abilities, too? In that case, yeah, why not the full base dragon adjustment?