Special Conversion Thread: Moldvay's Undead

freyar · Dec 18, 2009

What if we just make the bite primary? Slams can be primary or secondary either way. Also, can someone link where in the SRD it says how much Str to add to which kind of natural weapon? I'm not finding it at the moment.

Cleon · Dec 19, 2009

freyar said:
What if we just make the bite primary?

That'd work. I make Slam the primary since that's what standard zombies use, but there's no reason we can't make them "bitey" zombies. Maybe they're been watching George Romero movies.

So, change it to:

Full Strength - 4HD, speed 30 ft, Strength 18, Bite 1d6+4 and 2 slams 1d6+2.
Half Dead - 3HD, speed 30 ft (cannot Run), Strength 16, Bite 1d6+3 and slam 1d6+1.
Mostly Dead - 2HD, speed 30 ft. (cannot Run), Strength 14, Bite 1d6+3, single actions only.

freyar said:
Slams can be primary or secondary either way. Also, can someone link where in the SRD it says how much Str to add to which kind of natural weapon? I'm not finding it at the moment.

Actually the SRD Natural Weapons rules don't set any natural attack as being primary or secondary, it just says you follow the individual monster's entry, and the default Str adds for primary & secondary claws are just the same as they are for artificial weapons as described in "Reading The Monster Entries" under Full Attack.

There are exceptions though. For example, True Dragons have a secondary attack and a 1.5 Str bonus on their tail attacks, some creatures only add 0.5 their Str on their primary attacks (e.g. the SRD Light Horse and Heavy Horse). There isn't a rule that says "all hooves only do secondary damage" or anything like that, though. It's basically artibrary, which allows us to be arbitrary about what multiple of Str to apply on a particular monster's attack too, if we like.

Full Attack

This line shows all the physical attacks the creature makes when it uses a full-round action to make a full attack. It gives the number of attacks along with the weapon, attack bonus, and form of attack (melee or ranged). The first entry is for the creature’s primary weapon, with an attack bonus including modifications for size and Strength (for melee attacks) or Dexterity (for ranged attacks). A creature with the Weapon Finesse feat can use its Dexterity modifier on melee attacks. The remaining weapons are secondary, and attacks with them are made with a -5 penalty to the attack roll, no matter how many there are. Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks. The damage that each attack deals is noted parenthetically. Damage from an attack is always at least 1 point, even if a subtraction from a die roll reduces the result to 0 or lower.

A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1½ times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. Secondary attacks add only ½ the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses.

freyar · Dec 19, 2009

Well, I think you went from adding +Str to +Str-and-a-half when you went from half-dead to mostly-dead. Let's be consistent.

As for the rest, I could have sworn there was a sort-of standard. I guess I'm just getting confused with Pathfinder, which does have "standard" rules for natural attack Str bonuses.

Cleon · Dec 21, 2009

freyar said:
Well, I think you went from adding +Str to +Str-and-a-half when you went from half-dead to mostly-dead. Let's be consistent.

Well I went from 1 to 1.5 Str because it was consistent with the 3E rules for creatures with a single attack, but I don't mind changing it if t'others have no objection.

freyar said:
As for the rest, I could have sworn there was a sort-of standard. I guess I'm just getting confused with Pathfinder, which does have "standard" rules for natural attack Str bonuses.

I was half-suspecting you were getting it mixed up with Pathfinder's natural attack rules. (Which I don't really agree with, but that's neither here nor there.)

There doesn't seem to be that much consistency in the 3/3.5 natural attack DB though. Claws seem to be primary more often than bites in a claw/claw/bite routine, and tails are usually secondary, but there doesn't seem to be backed by an official rule.

I wonder what the distribution of Primary/Secondary natural attacks is? It might be worth going through the SRD and counting them...

Shade · Dec 21, 2009

freyar said:
Also, if the rest of you don't like the single actions at "mostly dead" and cannot run at half dead, we could just do cannot run at mostly dead. That would fit with dragging themselves along with an arm.

Yeah, let's do that. I don't fancy the single actions only for this variant zombie.

Cleon said:
Well I went from 1 to 1.5 Str because it was consistent with the 3E rules for creatures with a single attack, but I don't mind changing it if t'others have no objection.

We could get around the problem by giving them the one of the powerful bite abilities given to a few later-era creatures...

Powerful Bite (Ex): A froghemoth's jaws are extraordinarily powerful. Even though its bite is a seconary attack, it applies 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier to damage done with its bite. Its bite threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 18-20.

We can drop the expanded crit range from this example if you'd prefer.

freyar · Dec 21, 2009

Starting with +1-1/2 Str is fine with me. I just don't want the bite getting more powerful as the zombie falls apart!

Shade · Dec 21, 2009

Added to Homebrews.

demiurge1138 · Dec 22, 2009

Powerful bite sounds like a good idea, and I agree that it shouldn't get an expanded crit range.

Shade · Dec 22, 2009

These are rolling along easily now. We probably need a writeup for the ability that transitions between stat blocks.

How's this?

Relentless (Su?): When a walking dead is reduced to 0 hit points, it isn't destroyed. Rather, it is quite damaged, as reflected by the half-dead stat block. When a half-dead walking dead is reduced to 0 hit points, it is badly damaged, essentially just a crawling torso, as reflected by the mostly dead stat block. A mostly dead walking dead reduced to 0 hit points is permanently destroyed.

I thought about adding the following underbar, just for fun...

More Fun with the Walking Dead
DMs might consider adding a bit of variety to their walking dead hordes. For example, some of the half-dead and mostly dead might have lost their heads, rather than an arm or two, retaining slam attacks and losing the bite attack instead.

Truly enterprising DMs might take the walking dead a step further, adding an additional stat block after mostly dead to represent a crawling arm or rolling head that keeps attacking. Such walking dead would best be represented by 1/2 Hit Dice, Tiny or Diminutive size, and only a single attack. A single walking dead might break into two or more such "walking dead bits".