Special Conversion Thread: Plants

[Cleon]

The underbar for extra tendrils sounds good, as does Gargantuan. I notice now also that the current advancement has a 6-8HD line, even though the base critter already has 8 HD. What about 1 extra tendril per 2 extra HD and Advancement: 9-14 HD (Large), 15-20 HD (Huge), 21-24 HD (Gargantuan)?

Oh blast you're right. I copy-and-pasted the pitcher plant and forgot to change its Advancement.

I was just going to Advance them to Huge, something like:

Advancement: 9-12 HD (Large), 13-24 HD (Huge)

Skills sound ok, but I don't know that they need so much into Bluff given their magical compulsions. For feats, maybe Power Attack, Dodge, and Lightning Reflexes?

Good point on the Bluff, we might as well drop it. They could do with some skill in Hide. Shall we give them a racial bonus on Hide (say +8 in undergrowth), and split the SPs between Hide, Listen and Spot.

How about dividing its 11 ranks Hide 3, Listen 4, Spot 4. That would give:

Skills: Hide +0* (+8 in undergrowth), Listen +5, Spot +5

I could go for boosting the racial Hide bonus to +12 in undergrowth, since you'd expect a plant to blend in well in such surroundings!

EDIT: How about we give them a racial/circumstance bonus on Bluff checks due to their telepathy? Add "*a hellborn has a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks against creatures it is communicating with using its telepathy."

Skills: Bluff +3* (+7 with telepathy), Hide +0* (+8 in undergrowth), Listen +5, Spot +5

I don't like Dodge for them, for 'tis a useless feat. Wouldn't Weapon Focus (tendril) give more bang for the buck?

Feats: Power Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (tendril)

 

[Cleon]

Added to Homebrews.

Looking through the updated text there are still a few "tentacles" which should be "tendrils".

At least you noticed the Giant Octopus I'd left in Improved Grab.

Oh, and I keep on spelling it wrong - there's just something about "helborn" that makes me think it should have two Ls, so there are quite a few "hellborns" in the writeup that shouldn't be there.

I'll edit my post #65 to remove those typos.

EDIT: Oh, and I might as well throw in Shade's additions and my proposed Advancement, Skills and Feats.

 

[Cleon]

One last thing. That +3 Will save looks a bit odd for a creature with domination and mass suggestion SLAs and telepathy.

Do we want to do something to improve it?

 

[Shade]

I'm still rooting for Bluff, as the original text clearly indicates that they try to manipulate people in the ol' fashioned way as well as their magical compulsions:

It is very cunning and uses treasure as a bribe or as a lure to trick prey into coming within reach of its tendrils. The helborn might also try to nonverbally convince its victims that it wants to help them in return for “food.”

The bonus on Hide checks sounds good, but I don't think it needs any skill ranks. It's a deceptive hunter, not an ambush hunter.

Power Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (tendril) sound good. I'm fine with the poor Will save, but if you want to boost it, I'd swap Lightning Reflexes for Iron Will. Nothing screams "good reflexes" to me for this one.

I'd prefer the 9-14 HD (Large), 15-20 HD (Huge), 21-24 HD (Gargantuan) advancement, and the new tendril per 2 HD works for me.

Any particular reason to limit the number of tendrils it can employ? It seems an unnecessary hindrance to me.

 

[Cleon]

I'm still rooting for Bluff, as the original text clearly indicates that they try to manipulate people in the ol' fashioned way as well as their magical compulsions:

The bonus on Hide checks sounds good, but I don't think it needs any skill ranks. It's a deceptive hunter, not an ambush hunter.

Well I'd be game to move the skill ranks to Bluff provided we use the +12 racial bonus to Hide in undergrowth. That would give them:

Skills: Bluff +6* (+10 with telepathy), Hide +1* (+9 in undergrowth), Listen +5, Spot +5

Power Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (tendril) sound good. I'm fine with the poor Will save, but if you want to boost it, I'd swap Lightning Reflexes for Iron Will. Nothing screams "good reflexes" to me for this one.

Yes, moving the Lightning Reflexes to Iron Will was percolating through my mind too. Let's do that.

I'd prefer the 9-14 HD (Large), 15-20 HD (Huge), 21-24 HD (Gargantuan) advancement, and the new tendril per 2 HD works for me.

I guess I'm alright with it advancing to Gargantuan, but I'd rather the HD ranges got wider as it got bigger. Something like:

Advancement: 9-11 HD (Large), 12-17 HD (Huge), 18-24 HD (Gargantuan)

i.e. a Large helborn has 4-5 tendrils, a Huge one has 6-8 and a Gargantuan one 9-12 tendrils.

Any particular reason to limit the number of tendrils it can employ? It seems an unnecessary hindrance to me.

I just didn't fancy having it be able to coordinate that many attacks at once. I'd be alright with 4-12 tendril attacks if it could only direct 4 of them against any particular Small to Medium opponent (2 for Tiny, 1 for Diminutive or smaller), so a 12-tendril Helborn can only use all its tendrils if facing three regular-sized foes or one Large+ one.

Anyhow, I'll edit these revisions into my proposed stats in post #65.

 

[Shade]

Well I'd be game to move the skill ranks to Bluff provided we use the +12 racial bonus to Hide in undergrowth. That would give them:

Skills: Bluff +6* (+10 with telepathy), Hide +1* (+9 in undergrowth), Listen +5, Spot +5

Yep, that works for me!

I guess I'm alright with it advancing to Gargantuan, but I'd rather the HD ranges got wider as it got bigger. Something like:

Advancement: 9-11 HD (Large), 12-17 HD (Huge), 18-24 HD (Gargantuan)

i.e. a Large helborn has 4-5 tendrils, a Huge one has 6-8 and a Gargantuan one 9-12 tendrils.

Again, works for me.

I just didn't fancy having it be able to coordinate that many attacks at once. I'd be alright with 4-12 tendril attacks if it could only direct 4 of them against any particular Small to Medium opponent (2 for Tiny, 1 for Diminutive or smaller), so a 12-tendril Helborn can only use all its tendrils if facing three regular-sized foes or one Large+ one.

I don't think it's necessary, but if we do this, we can simply borrow from the darktentacles...

"A darktentacles can use only three tentacles at once against a Small or Medium opponent. Against a larger foe, it can use three additional tentacles for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided that it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the creature can use only one tentacle. It can use a maximum of three tentacles against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area."

...modified to fit...

A helborn can use only four tendrils at once against a Small or Medium opponent. Against a larger foe, it can use four additional tendrils for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided that it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the creature can use only one tendril. It can use a maximum of four tendrils against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area.

Does that work?

 

[freyar]

The proposed modifications sound fine to me. I also don't see the need to limit the number of tendrils per opponent (by the time they're Gargantuan, they should be mean!), but Shade's text is good if we do that.

 

[Cleon]

Yep, that works for me!



Again, works for me.



I don't think it's necessary, but if we do this, we can simply borrow from the darktentacles...

"A darktentacles can use only three tentacles at once against a Small or Medium opponent. Against a larger foe, it can use three additional tentacles for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided that it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the creature can use only one tentacle. It can use a maximum of three tentacles against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area."

...modified to fit...

A helborn can use only four tendrils at once against a Small or Medium opponent. Against a larger foe, it can use four additional tendrils for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided that it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the creature can use only one tendril. It can use a maximum of four tendrils against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area.

Does that work?

That's fine by me!

 

[Shade]

Updated.

CR?

 

[freyar]

With the SLAs, it's almost as good as a tendriculos, but I'm not sure if it's quite as good. Does CR 6 sound right, or is CR 5 better?