Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition

Well, because the game we had been playing hit the right spot for what we were looking for, though now with 5E it is a better fit than before: progress marches on.

It is interesting that the D&D Adventures board game line is still being maintained with the 4E-style rules, as that is kind if a "D&D Tactics" branch off...

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Yeah, it seems like a good basis for that. 5e doesn't really have anything to offer that sort of a game. 5e kinda drives me nuts half the people I played with felt compelled to try it, and didn't like it and went back to playing their 3.5 game. I think they were all having fun with the couple 4e games I ran for them at various times too, but now they seem spoiled on the whole idea of anything 'new'. It seems like there are just far too many D&Ds now, and 5e was the straw that broke the camel's back in our neck of the woods. It didn't seem like enough was brought to the table to justify it IMHO.
 

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Parmandur

Book-Friend
Yeah, it seems like a good basis for that. 5e doesn't really have anything to offer that sort of a game. 5e kinda drives me nuts half the people I played with felt compelled to try it, and didn't like it and went back to playing their 3.5 game. I think they were all having fun with the couple 4e games I ran for them at various times too, but now they seem spoiled on the whole idea of anything 'new'. It seems like there are just far too many D&Ds now, and 5e was the straw that broke the camel's back in our neck of the woods. It didn't seem like enough was brought to the table to justify it IMHO.
Curious, not really familiar with anybody IRL that hasn't embraced 5E as the new standard: it's sort of the ultimate expression of my experience of D&D, at any rate.

We had a lot of combat in our games; it was just short, dirty and quickly resolved with some crazy die rolls. Positioning and tactics were not important, though in 3.x (like 5E), it could be.

Another consideration to the "feels" of 4E versus other editions: the books were set up as reference manuals without a lot of fun reading potential. See the 4E MM versus the 5E one, more stats, less flavor. That focus on everything feeding into tactical, systematically complete systems was a somewhat new take, that did not fit everyone's tastes.

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Tony Vargas

Legend
I think that was less hard-n-fast than it appeared though. I mean, as long as you were fine with the potential woolyness of how things work in ToTM you could just play 4e that way.
I've done just that. 4e's presentation is very clear and it's rules work, so there's maybe less impetus to toss them to the curb at every opportunity, but when an encounter simply doesn't call for an involved resolution, there's no difficulty in zipping through it without breaking out the minis and worrying about all the tactical details.

The GM describes stuff, and the players point out when they think they can do something and do it, the GM decides who exactly is in the 'blast 3' and whatever.
Perhaps ironically, I've found that running 4e 'TotM' much like running it 3D using only a 2D map, is actually made easier by the reduced granularity of using 5' squares as the base unit instead of feet. It's easy to visualize a 3x3 cube and where it snaps to an imaginary grid, vs a 160-degree 8' long fan or 20' sphere or whatnot.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I've done just that. 4e's presentation is very clear and it's rules work, so there's maybe less impetus to toss them to the curb at every opportunity, but when an encounter simply doesn't call for an involved resolution, there's no difficulty in zipping through it without breaking out the minis and worrying about all the tactical details.

Perhaps ironically, I've found that running 4e 'TotM' much like running it 3D using only a 2D map, is actually made easier by the reduced granularity of using 5' squares as the base unit instead of feet. It's easy to visualize a 3x3 cube and where it snaps to an imaginary grid, vs a 160-degree 8' long fan or 20' sphere or whatnot.
Yeah, but "squares" ain't natural language; without actually busting out a grid map, not all that intuitive (also, hexes are always to be preferred to squares for such work, anyways).

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I dunno, 4e is BOTH less and more focused on combat. It sharply segments the two, and then tackles each of them with a slightly different and somewhat overlapping set of mechanics. A LOT of people apparently just never even bothered with anything but combat.

I really wish they had present 4e very differently.

Skill challenges can be used as part of combat, and combat rules can be used as part of skill challenges, and it all works fantastically. We've done chase-fights, fights while exploring, combined combat and non combat to do those quick fights people claim 4e didn't handle*, and a host of other things.

*Ie, 3-4 quick fights of 1 or 2 rounds each, with pressure to keep moving without rest, and challenges to overcome like traps and puzzles, all treated as one complex encounter. It's super easy to pull off, but it's like the designers didn't even realize it was doable.

But also, 4e is the only edition I can think of that has more mechanics devoted to out of combat challenges than just using a single d20 roll to determine success or failure.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
Yeah, but "squares" ain't natural language; without actually busting out a grid map, not all that intuitive
No, they're jargon, which makes a difference when you're reading the book for entertainment or atmosphere, but not when you're reading it as a reference manual (which is how the 4e core rule books tended to be written) - of course as jargon goes, the 5' square as used in 2e C&T, 3.x/PF, 4e, & the 5e tactical module, can also be simply a unit of measure equal to 5' - not a hard number to work with whether you're multiplying by 5 to get feet, or dividing by 5 to get squares.
But, yes, IMHO, squares & cubes are very intuitive & easy to visualize when you don't have the luxury of a play surface. 4e's treatment of AEs as squares rather than blasts & circles & spreads & cylinders &c, was a significant simplification that way. And it's counting of distance was also very simple.

[sblock]For instance, say you want to hit an enemy atop a 20' wall that's 45' away with a spell that has a 50' range. Using feet, you break out the Pythagorean theorem, and sqrt(400 + 2025) = 49.25 ooh, just within range! good thing we didn't just eyeball it. OTOH, if you pull out the concept of counting in 5' squares, you simplify it. You don't /need/ a grid, you just work with the numbers 4 and 9 instead of 20 and 45. For instance, in the 3.5 square-counting convention, you count every-other diagonal (such as moving 'up' ) as 10' instead of 5', so as you count distance towards the top of that 20' wall, you have to count 4 diagonal squares 'up,' adding 10' to the distance so our 3.5 estimate of range would be 55' (by the RAW). You do give up a little precision for that simplification. 5e, you could go with feet, or you could adapt the optional grid rules, which work just like 3.5s, except the first diagonal counts as 10', not the second (which doesn't matter in this case, but would if it were a 15' or 25' wall). 4e just counts diagonals as one square, a further simplification, so when you look at range & elevation, the total distance is simply the greater of the two: in this case, 45'. (Oh, and if it were 1e, there'd be one burning question we'd need to know, first: is that wall out in a field, or in a cavern, because a spell with a "50' range" is really a spell with a 5" range, to scale, and that scale would be different in each case.)

Then there's areas. 4e over-simplified all areas into square/cube approximations (both burst and blast net you such areas - really, it could have been simplified into just 'area,' but there are some minor difference that I guess they thought were worth preserving). The sanity-blasting effects of Pi=4 on certain sorts of gamers probably shouldn't be made of light of, but, even net of the cost of their therapy, I think 4e gained a good deal in the simplicity department with that move. Say you want blast a band of Kobolds that are conveniently lined up well within range of a spell that affects a 10' radius. Ideally, you'd center the spell on the center of the line, and catch every kobold to 10' on either side. Unfortunately, for purposes of making this example difficult, there's also an ally you don't want to catch in the spell within 10' of that ideal target point, so you have to back it off to hit 5' behind them. Now, how many kobolds do you catch on the chord 5' from the center of a 20' diameter sphere? Simple: sqrt(100 - 75) = 8.66, or, at least, how many stand side-by-side in a line that length. But, 3.5 simplifies it for you using squares (and doesn't have small creatures occupy smaller squares) and official RAW templates of various radii, in the case of a 10' radius, centered (and 'centered' means on a corner, not a square in 3.5) 5' behind a line of kobolds affects 2 squares - only two kobolds. 4e also simplifies it using squares, but moreso, by making 10' radius spell in to a burst 1 (a 15' square) (a result of centering on squares rather than corners, again, for the sake of simplicity). A 15' square centered 5' behind a line of kobolds, of course, affects exactly as many as one centered on them, 3.

Of course, that doesn't make any edition of D&D /good/ for running TotM. If they didn't use scale inches or squares they used in-world feet, all demanding excessive precision when not working with a play surface. No, for TotM, you want a system like 13A, where ranges and areas are expressed in handy, proximate terms like 'Close.' That spell you're trying to blast kobolds with might affect 1d4 close enemies, for instance - no calculation or visualization of cubes required. Just ask the DM if the Kobolds are 'close,' roll that d4 and blast 'em. [/sblock]

(also, hexes are always to be preferred to squares for such work, anyways).
Oh, I played Champions! enough to have a healthy appreciation for hexes. The square vs hex debate's an old one. Not an important one, IMHO, but some folks have a strong preference. :shrug:

But also, 4e is the only edition I can think of that has more mechanics devoted to out of combat challenges than just using a single d20 roll to determine success or failure.
1e had non-combat resolutions that could involve d% or d6 rolls, instead of d20, so there's that. Actually, I think it more often used d% for OOC, the Thief's special abilities, for instance. 3e had contested checks (that's technically two d20 rolls) and 'complex skill checks' (which was just repeating the same roll several times to complete the task). 4e added Skill Challenges and group checks. 5e retained contested and group checks. No question that Skill Challenges were (eventually) the most signficant and full-party-involving of those more-than-a-single-d20-roll examples, of course.
 
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Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
Curious, not really familiar with anybody IRL that hasn't embraced 5E as the new standard: it's sort of the ultimate expression of my experience of D&D, at any rate.

We had a lot of combat in our games; it was just short, dirty and quickly resolved with some crazy die rolls. Positioning and tactics were not important, though in 3.x (like 5E), it could be.

Another consideration to the "feels" of 4E versus other editions: the books were set up as reference manuals without a lot of fun reading potential. See the 4E MM versus the 5E one, more stats, less flavor. That focus on everything feeding into tactical, systematically complete systems was a somewhat new take, that did not fit everyone's tastes.

The 4E MM was an abomination on every level, due to choices made by its lead designer.


He chose to leave out the interesting bits. He chose to leave out "regular" monsters because he wanted more of a Fiend Folio feel. He also used at least three different iterations of the earlier monster design rules to create stat blocks instead of the relatively final - until MM3 - version of those rules that appeared in the DMG.


The 4E MM is an outlier, as was Heroes of Shadow when the same lead writer demonstrated that, despite everyone else in the company growing in their 4E design skills, he had not.


But read the other books. Yes, the rules sections are written as reference manuals because that provides both clarity and cogency. But to this day, I am continually surprised at how many nuggets of interesting lore can be found in the 4E books that will spark an idea for an encounter, an adventure, and/or a campaign.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
No, they're jargon, which makes a difference when you're reading the book for entertainment or atmosphere, but not when you're reading it as a reference manual (which is how the 4e core rule books tended to be written) - of course as jargon goes, the 5' square as used in 2e C&T, 3.x/PF, 4e, & the 5e tactical module, can also be simply a unit of measure equal to 5' - not a hard number to work with whether you're multiplying by 5 to get feet, or dividing by 5 to get squares.
But, yes, IMHO, squares & cubes are very intuitive & easy to visualize when you don't have the luxury of a play surface. 4e's treatment of AEs as squares rather than blasts & circles & spreads & cylinders &c, was a significant simplification that way. And it's counting of distance was also very simple.

[sblock]For instance, say you want to hit an enemy atop a 20' wall that's 45' away with a spell that has a 50' range. Using feet, you break out the Pythagorean theorem, and sqrt(400 + 2025) = 49.25 ooh, just within range! good thing we didn't just eyeball it. OTOH, if you pull out the concept of counting in 5' squares, you simplify it. You don't /need/ a grid, you just work with the numbers 4 and 9 instead of 20 and 45. For instance, in the 3.5 square-counting convention, you count every-other diagonal (such as moving 'up' ) as 10' instead of 5', so as you count distance towards the top of that 20' wall, you have to count 4 diagonal squares 'up,' adding 10' to the distance so our 3.5 estimate of range would be 55' (by the RAW). You do give up a little precision for that simplification. 5e, you could go with feet, or you could adapt the optional grid rules, which work just like 3.5s, except the first diagonal counts as 10', not the second (which doesn't matter in this case, but would if it were a 15' or 25' wall). 4e just counts diagonals as one square, a further simplification, so when you look at range & elevation, the total distance is simply the greater of the two: in this case, 45'. (Oh, and if it were 1e, there'd be one burning question we'd need to know, first: is that wall out in a field, or in a cavern, because a spell with a "50' range" is really a spell with a 5" range, to scale, and that scale would be different in each case.)

Then there's areas. 4e over-simplified all areas into square/cube approximations (both burst and blast net you such areas - really, it could have been simplified into just 'area,' but there are some minor difference that I guess they thought were worth preserving). The sanity-blasting effects of Pi=4 on certain sorts of gamers probably shouldn't be made of light of, but, even net of the cost of their therapy, I think 4e gained a good deal in the simplicity department with that move. Say you want blast a band of Kobolds that are conveniently lined up well within range of a spell that affects a 10' radius. Ideally, you'd center the spell on the center of the line, and catch every kobold to 10' on either side. Unfortunately, for purposes of making this example difficult, there's also an ally you don't want to catch in the spell within 10' of that ideal target point, so you have to back it off to hit 5' behind them. Now, how many kobolds do you catch on the chord 5' from the center of a 20' diameter sphere? Simple: sqrt(100 - 75) = 8.66, or, at least, how many stand side-by-side in a line that length. But, 3.5 simplifies it for you using squares (and doesn't have small creatures occupy smaller squares) and official RAW templates of various radii, in the case of a 10' radius, centered (and 'centered' means on a corner, not a square in 3.5) 5' behind a line of kobolds affects 2 squares - only two kobolds. 4e also simplifies it using squares, but moreso, by making 10' radius spell in to a burst 1 (a 15' square) (a result of centering on squares rather than corners, again, for the sake of simplicity). A 15' square centered 5' behind a line of kobolds, of course, affects exactly as many as one centered on them, 3.

Of course, that doesn't make any edition of D&D /good/ for running TotM. If they didn't use scale inches or squares they used in-world feet, all demanding excessive precision when not working with a play surface. No, for TotM, you want a system like 13A, where ranges and areas are expressed in handy, proximate terms like 'Close.' That spell you're trying to blast kobolds with might affect 1d4 close enemies, for instance - no calculation or visualization of cubes required. Just ask the DM if the Kobolds are 'close,' roll that d4 and blast 'em. [/sblock]

Oh, I played Champions! enough to have a healthy appreciation for hexes. The square vs hex debate's an old one. Not an important one, IMHO, but some folks have a strong preference. :shrug:

1e had non-combat resolutions that could involve d% or d6 rolls, instead of d20, so there's that. Actually, I think it more often used d% for OOC, the Thief's special abilities, for instance. 3e had contested checks (that's technically two d20 rolls) and 'complex skill checks' (which was just repeating the same roll several times to complete the task). 4e added Skill Challenges and group checks. 5e retained contested and group checks. No question that Skill Challenges were (eventually) the most signficant and full-party-involving of those more-than-a-single-d20-roll examples, of course.
I mean, traditional D&D is pretty kludgey for that sort of thing; but the muddling through is fun?

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Tony Vargas

Legend
The 4E MM is an outlier, as was Heroes of Shadow when the same lead writer demonstrated that, despite everyone else in the company growing in their 4E design skills, he had not.
Ouch. Sounds personal.

But, sure, HoS is certainly a candidate for nadir of the edition (KotS is also right down there). I know the MM numbers weren't working quite right yet, but I'd never heard that a mix of in-development system were used, though, of course, I'd heard that about KotS. That might explain a few things.

But read the other books. Yes, the rules sections are written as reference manuals because that provides both clarity and cogency. But to this day, I am continually surprised at how many nuggets of interesting lore can be found in the 4E books that will spark an idea for an encounter, an adventure, and/or a campaign.
The Plane Above, much as part of me dislikes the idea of the heavens still in disarray from the Dawn War, like some sort of eternal post-WWII Europe without the Marshal Plan, has kept coming through with interesting bits to use for the campaign I'm finishing out, which has reached Epic and some of the action has moved there. Currently they're on their way to Erishani.

I mean, traditional D&D is pretty kludgey for that sort of thing; but the muddling through is fun?
As another old-timer I gamed with during the Next Playtest was fond of saying "we made our own fun." ;)
 
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