doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Defenders really help reduce boring "tactical" play. Also controller strikers tend to work really well for engaging with combat less one dimensionally.
Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition
- Thread starter cavalier973
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Defenders really help reduce boring "tactical" play. Also controller strikers tend to work really well for engaging with combat less one dimensionally.
That would be the sorcerer in my main game!
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Sorcerers make great control strikers.
If, by "false and pernicious", you mean one of the strongest and most central elements of the system, then we agree. Otherwise not. (I also don't know what you mean by "slides". DCs don't slide in any way I can see; they are set by the GM.
From the DMG (pp 41, 42, 61, 64, 65, 73, 159):
For your own adventures, use the Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table on page 42 . . .
If a character tries an action that might fail, use a check to resolve it. To do that, you need to know what kind of check it is and what the DC is. . . . Consult the Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table below, and set the DC according to whether you think the task should be easy, hard, or somewhere in between. . . .
Challenging terrain requires a skill check or ability check to cross. . . . Use the Skill Check Difficulty Class table below to select a relevant DC for the party’s level. . . .
When terrain requires a skill check or ability check, use the Difficulty Class by Level table (page 42) to set a DC that’s appropriate to the characters’ level. . . .
Improvised Terrain Effects: The D&D game would become a bloated mess if we tried to cover every possible obstacle or terrain. If you want to use something not covered in this chapter, refer to the examples here as a guideline. . . . Is there a chance that a character could try to enter a space and fail? If so, ask for an appropriate check. . . . Use the Difficulty Class by Level table (page 42) to aid you. . . .
Set a level for the [skill] challenge and DCs for the checks involved. As a starting point, set the level of the challenge to the level of the party, and use moderate DCs for the skill checks (see the Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table on page 42). . . .
When designing your own environmental dangers, rely on the Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table (page 42) and your common sense.
If a character tries an action that might fail, use a check to resolve it. To do that, you need to know what kind of check it is and what the DC is. . . . Consult the Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table below, and set the DC according to whether you think the task should be easy, hard, or somewhere in between. . . .
Challenging terrain requires a skill check or ability check to cross. . . . Use the Skill Check Difficulty Class table below to select a relevant DC for the party’s level. . . .
When terrain requires a skill check or ability check, use the Difficulty Class by Level table (page 42) to set a DC that’s appropriate to the characters’ level. . . .
Improvised Terrain Effects: The D&D game would become a bloated mess if we tried to cover every possible obstacle or terrain. If you want to use something not covered in this chapter, refer to the examples here as a guideline. . . . Is there a chance that a character could try to enter a space and fail? If so, ask for an appropriate check. . . . Use the Difficulty Class by Level table (page 42) to aid you. . . .
Set a level for the [skill] challenge and DCs for the checks involved. As a starting point, set the level of the challenge to the level of the party, and use moderate DCs for the skill checks (see the Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table on page 42). . . .
When designing your own environmental dangers, rely on the Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table (page 42) and your common sense.
And from the Rules Compendium (p 126):
The Dungeon Master can use the suggested DC for a task or set one using the Difficulty Class by Level table. The table provides DCs at each level for three categories of difficulty: easy, moderate, and hard. When choosing a DC from the table, the Dungeon Master should use the level of the creature performing the check, unless otherwise noted.
In other words, across the lifetime of the edition, the DC by level table has been at the heart of setting DCs. (For combat DCs - ie enemy defences - instead of the DC-by-level table there is the monster design table in the DMG, in conjunction with the guidance on what level range of creatures is suitable for an encounter. The function of these guidelines is the same as the DC by level table.)
Well, the GM can have the 1st level PCs attacked by a 30th level dragon; have the Axe of the Dwarven Lords guarded by a single orc minion; have the gateway to Carceri by a DC 17 iron shod door; or set any other DC s/he likes. that doesn't mean that s/he is likely to get a good game.
The DC-by-level table (and the corresponding monster-defence-and-creature-level guidelines) are at the heart of designing challenges for a 4e game that will make the game work as designed (ie with reliable and engaging pacing). The first thing you want to know, as a 4e GM designing a scenario in mechanical terms, is the level of the PCs who will be engaging it.
The narration of the fiction is then expected to follow - that's what the MM, and the general characterisation of the tiers of play in the PHB and DMG are for.
Insisting that these are mere guidelines (which I take to be a denial that they are central to GMing the game) reminds me of this exchange on RPG.net in relation to the HeroQuest revised DC-setting chart (called "the pass/fail system"):
kallisti_dk: The Pass/Fail Cycle system, as it is called, is just a tool in the Narrator's toolbox. How you choose to apply it is completely up to you.
You could use for setting all difficulties, or never use it at all. Possibly you would do something in between, as I do.
simon_hibbs: That's an important point. The Pass/Fail is not actualy part of the HeroQuest rules as I see it. Rather it takes the place of the traditional chapter in an RPG ruleboox which gives advice on how to run the game.
smascrns: On the contrary! From my POV, of course. What I find stimulating and very innovative in the Pass/Fail cycle is that it extends the rules set in new directions. Yes, it is not a mandatory component but the same can be said about everything else in a rpg rules set, isn't it?
I wrote that I consider the P/F cycle innovative, I didn't say it is inventive, and that for a good reason: HQ2 is not the first game to come with tools to control the difficulty of the ongoing game situation based on the "narrative" flow of the game. For instance, the DD4 DMG also tries to provide tools for precisely the same purpose, and we may even say that the whole concept of dungeon crawl found in original DD was mostly a way to control the flow of the game in narrative terms. Not to mention Tunnels & Trolls.
Still, the P/F cycle is innovative in tying up all the components of the game: Setting entities, mechanical entities, game flow, narrative flow. And it does all of this in a concise and simple way (yes, DD4, I'm looking at you).
You could use for setting all difficulties, or never use it at all. Possibly you would do something in between, as I do.
simon_hibbs: That's an important point. The Pass/Fail is not actualy part of the HeroQuest rules as I see it. Rather it takes the place of the traditional chapter in an RPG ruleboox which gives advice on how to run the game.
smascrns: On the contrary! From my POV, of course. What I find stimulating and very innovative in the Pass/Fail cycle is that it extends the rules set in new directions. Yes, it is not a mandatory component but the same can be said about everything else in a rpg rules set, isn't it?
I wrote that I consider the P/F cycle innovative, I didn't say it is inventive, and that for a good reason: HQ2 is not the first game to come with tools to control the difficulty of the ongoing game situation based on the "narrative" flow of the game. For instance, the DD4 DMG also tries to provide tools for precisely the same purpose, and we may even say that the whole concept of dungeon crawl found in original DD was mostly a way to control the flow of the game in narrative terms. Not to mention Tunnels & Trolls.
Still, the P/F cycle is innovative in tying up all the components of the game: Setting entities, mechanical entities, game flow, narrative flow. And it does all of this in a concise and simple way (yes, DD4, I'm looking at you).
Picking up on the last of those posts, I would say that the DC-by-level chart (and the monster-level guidelines) are as "optional" in 4e as the concept of dungeon level is in classic D&D.
Tony Vargas
Legend
You, sire, are not helping.
Slide with, move in lock step with, are determined by, &c PC level. The idea that a level 1 PC picking a lock faces an 'easy' DC, and a level 25 PC picking the same lock also faces an 'easy' DC, because it's an 'easy' lock, but, of course, his DC is much higher, negating all his 24 levels of advancement.
False & pernicious.
Exactly why the idea that they do is false & pernicious.
There really wan't that much backing up said concept, mechanically.
Well, my view is this.
First, as per the discussion in the PHB and DMG of the tiers of play, there is no expectation that the PCs will, as a general rule, confront the same situations at 25th as at 1st level. At least in its default presentation, the game assumes an escalation of (mechanical and fictional) challenges and (fictional, especially cosmological) stakes.
Second, if the PC does somehow end up in the same place (eg it turns out that the weird ruined chapel the PCs explored at 1st level is really the gate to the prison of the Chained God, which the 25th level PCs now need to enter to learn the truth about the origins of the Abyss) then the GM should - by default, and in my view - be stepping up the fiction in a way that speaks to the change in overall stakes. This could be anything from (i) an angel appearing to stop the PCs progressing through the door (so that the lock is not of any interest as a challenge at all). to (ii) the same angel using its divine magic to reinforce the lock. to (iii) the GM narrating wild colour that makes the check difficult ("When the time comes to break through the gate to the prison of the Chained God, of course the sun is eclipsed, the wind howls and lightning strikes all around you"), to (iv) it being the case that if you want to open the lock and pass through to the prison (rather than simply to the other side of the door on the mortal world) you have to pick the lock in multiple dimensions simultaneously, which is a task of Thievery so challenging that only an epic PC would have any chance of pulling it off!
Third, if the PCs are in the same place, doing the same thing, and nothing has changed about what is at stake so that the GM can supply the narration to frame the check at an appropriate DC, then epic tier seems not to be really living up to its name.
JeffB
Legend
I gave up on the Wizards forums circa 2003.
Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
OK, again I'm pretty sure the 4E skill system worked fine as is, bit reading y'all talking about the leveling DCs...good Lord, that sounds like a lot of work, particularly if beer is involved...?
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All the level 15 Soldiers printed in rule books - avoiding Dungeon+Adventures - haven't looked specifically at other levels, trying to keep the # of listed creatures manageable
Elder Electric Eel - fly+reach 3
Carrion Tribe Blessed Champion - none, but Eberron Campaign book.
Warlock Knight Vindicator - Reach 2+shift 4 if marked target moves away
Crag Roper - reach 10
Legathus Dython - ranged attack, close blast
Scroll Mummy - reach 2+other options
Red Salad Juggernaut - reach 3
Oristus - teleportation
Squamous Splitter - reach 2
Adult Red Dragon - reach 2
Mooncalf Rogue - reach 6
Yagnodemon - reach 3
Grayspawn Fleshtearer reach 2
Direhelm - nope, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
Hell Knight - reach 2
Derro Ironguard - nope, MM3
Red Slaad(Blood Salad) - reach 2
Rakhasa Warrior - encounter invisibility+shift speed
Carrion Crawler - reach 3
Fear Moth - fly+close blast stun+aura 2 that suggests there's a mistake in compendium about its basic attack
Watchful Ghost - fly+phasing
Quom Fanatic - Crossbow
Ebony Knight - pull target as minor action if immobilized, but otherwise no.
Nikolai - fly 1/encounter
Okay, so, out of all level 15 soldiers(24 of them):
3 have zero options. 1 in 8. Only 1 of which is in a Monster Manual-type book.
More than half have at least reach 2.
62% have some sort of basically at-will option to bypass Polearm Gamble.
75% have at least an automatic encounter option to bypass Polearm Gamble
83% if not already adjacent to the Dwarf, have either some way of getting around him to go after other targets - Watchful Ghost as an example can fly into the floor and come out adjacent to the Dwarf.
Here's another way of looking at it - out of all 21 soldiers not from an early campaign guide, only 1 doesn't have any kind of options other than trying to avoid the Dwarf. That's it. Level 15 Soldiers might be atypical - that's the only level/creature I looked at, but that's the kind of problem I'm referring to as being problematic with Polearm Gamble.
It does influence decisions - it might be better to be next to the Dwarf so the Dwarf can't move around them, but that's usually difficult anyway because most of them are some sort of large size and hard to move around.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I was thinking interesting as well as useful, but, y'know, not being taken completely out of an encounter by a failed save does leave you more interesting things to do.
And, yes, if you don't recall how bad the fighter had it in AD&D, I suppose the 5e fighter could look like the worst of the modern lot, though it still has things to recommend it. Not so much in the sense that they're enough to make it the equal of 3e or 4e fighters, but in the sense it has a few things that'd've been 'nice to have' for them, too.
Yeah, the AD&D fighter literally has 2 class features. He gets up to 3 attacks per round at high levels (but remember, an attack is pretty abstract and simple, and does fairly basic damage, though he might get enough giant strength to make that fairly substantial). His other class feature is he gets a whole bunch of followers that are 9 levels lower than him, which he must pay a fortune to attract, and which he must pay to maintain. These guys are useless in adventuring terms, considering his appropriate foes are greater undead, the largest dragons, etc. If he's lucky he will get a leader for them that is of useful level, but presumably has to remain with the troops (preferably hidden in a stronghold where they might be safe) most of the time. If you are REALLY REALLY lucky, like a couple % chance, said leader might have a substantial magic item (and without magic items even a 7th level fighter follower is fairly weak, though you could obviously find stuff to equip them with, but again that's not part of your class features).
So, basically, the fighter's class features amount to a simple scaling of their basic function, and a story feature that contributes very little mechanically in most cases, and at best imposes a bunch of narrative constraints on the character. Its actually kinda grim! At least fighters have good saves and a really substantial amount of hit points, though that hardly makes them interesting to play...
