D&D 4E Speculation. Energy Resistance in 4E based on the Pit Fiend example

[Derren]

I know there isn't much information about it but I think with the Pit Fiend as example monster there is room for a bit of speculation about how Energy Resistance works in 4E and if there will be any Energy Resistance spells.

For those who haven't read the Fiends statistic, here a small recap.
The fiend itself which is a high epic elite enemy has fire resistance 30. His attacks to mostly between 10 and 30 points of fire damage (where 15 is probably the average for most of its abilities)
This low damage potential means that fire resistance in 4E can't be very strong as otherwise this high level monster would be virtually useless (only 1 attack which does not do fire damage).

We know that PCs can have energy protection (see fight against red dragon), so how it will look? Here some ideas.

- It is a damage shield (3E Protection from Energy). Spells absorb x damage before collapsing.
->Tracking this shields is not streamlined compared to resistance

- The amount of energy resistance which can be gained by magic or equipment is very low and high level (5 for this pit fiend example)
->Monsters which do more energy damage than the Pit Fiend (which is a leader monsters so low damage is to be expected) are very dangerous as their damage is not blockable

- The amount of energy resistance which can be gained by magic or equipment is medicore (10 for this example)
->Some monsters, like this Pit Fiend will be very harmless when the party is prepared.

- Energy resistance works as damage shield which renews each round. For example fire resistance 30 blocks 30 fire damage each round before failing
->Still harder to track than typical resistance but more streamlined than 3E damage shields. Imo not very flavorful.

From Mentat55

- Energy Resistance works like a damage threshold. For example fire resistance 30 means you take no damage when the attack does 30 or less fire damage. When it does 31 or more you take full damage.


What do you think? What do you want to see in 4e?

 

[Mentat55]

What if energy resistance works like a damage threshold -- if you do not do at least 30 fire damage in a single hit to the pit fiend, he shrugs it off. However, if you do 31 or more points of fire damage, ALL of hit goes through. I am not speculating that this is the actual mechanic, but simply offering another possibility.

I think your 2nd idea (very low energy resistance via spells, magic items, and/or class abilities) or perhaps the 3rd idea (mediocre energy resistance, as you term it) seem like reasonable ways to go. Especially if damage is decreasing and/or hit points are increasing, then having additional large damage buffers would seem counterproductive to me.

 

[Derren]

Good idea. I'll add it in my OP.

 

[Slander]

- Energy resistance works as damage shield which renews each round. For example fire resistance 30 blocks 30 fire damage each round before failing
->Still harder to track than typical resistance but more streamlined than 3E damage shields. Imo not very flavorful.

From Mentat55

- Energy Resistance works like a damage threshold. For example fire resistance 30 means you take no damage when the attack does 30 or less fire damage. When it does 31 or more you take full damage.

Either of these, though I'm more comfortable with the first. As interesting as Mentat's idea sounds (and it really is a neat idea), I just can't imagine all of the various re balancing that would go into making it work properly. I'm not implying it couldn't be done ... I just can't imagine the end result with all of my 3x biases.

 

[Lackhand]

I don't really have an opinion for what I'd like to see, but I disagree that the damage shield version is as bad as it seems at first.

The trick is all in the accounting: Rather than saying it absorbs 10 hit points, and then noting each point of damage against it (3 fire damage -- 7 left. 5 fire damage -- 2 left. 3 fire damage -- it's gone, 1 damage to me!) it's easier to count up and compare, or at least, it is for me (3 fire damage -- 3 total. 5 fire damage -- 8 total. 3 fire damage -- 11 total, 1 more than 10).

This is slightly more cumbersome than the threshhold model, so I'm not convinced it's the Way Things Will Be, but it's exactly as complex as hitpoints are, and I wouldn't hate using it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Some of the ideas are interesting, but given 4E's attempt to simplify things as much as possible, its most likely energy resistance is just fairly low.

The Spined Devil has fire resistance 20, while the Pit Fiend has Fire Resistance 30.

Now both of those monsters live in what could be described a fiery environment.

So its possible that affords them a base 15 fire resistance, with an additional 5 points for each tier.

Therefore PCs (who are not fire-dwelling) may have access to Fire Resistance 5 at Heroic tier, 10 at Paragon and 15 at epic. While that seems low, it would make a huge difference against the Pit Fiends assaults.

The red dragon's breath strips away fire resistance. I wonder what damage it does, you would imagine it might be in and around 45-90 (for the ancient red dragon I mean).

It might have been nice to give the Pit Fiend an attack which strips away a targets Fire Resistance given its attacks are so fire related. Hopefully some devil will have such an attack which would make them useful in a Pit Fiend encounter.

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

Another option is how Shields work in Saga.

IE: If damage exceeds the threshold, the damage is still absorbed, but the overall Resistance amount is reduced (by 5 in Saga). There are also actions you can take to restore your Resistance back to its normal value.

So if you have Fire Resistance 30 and are dealt 31 fire damage in a single attack, then you only take 1 damage but your fire Fire Resistance is dropped to 25, at least until you take some action to restore it.

 

[Lizard]

Another option is how Shields work in Saga.

IE: If damage exceeds the threshold, the damage is still absorbed, but the overall Resistance amount is reduced (by 5 in Saga). There are also actions you can take to restore your Resistance back to its normal value.

So if you have Fire Resistance 30 and are dealt 31 fire damage in a single attack, then you only take 1 damage but your fire Fire Resistance is dropped to 25, at least until you take some action to restore it.

This seems likely. Or it might simply be that it drops by X for every attack, absorbed or not, so there's a motive to kill it FAST. Those multiple fire attacks (mace, whip, kamikaze devil) could drop resistance in a single round, and next round...well, get out the marshmallows.

This allows even relatively low level foes to be a threat, if the PCs can't get to them before they wear down their resistance.

Some combo might also work:
Damage less than half resistance: No effect.
Damage half resistance to full resistance: No damage to PC, resistance -5.
(One of the following)
Damage over resistance: No damage to PC, resistance gone. (You get one 'free' save.)
Damage over resistance: Full damage to PC, resistance gone. (Ouch)
Damage over resistance: 'Overflow' damage to PC, resistance gone. (The most 'fair')

 

[jaer]

I think the pit fiend is doing medium levels of fire damage, and I think at their best, players will be able to avoid most to all of the pit fiend's damage, but it would take some planning and some magical items.

I think the variety, usefulness, and power of castables buffs will be extremely reduced so that you don't have to have the cleric or wizard there to cast spells on the party like energy resist. I think it might be the leader's job to help prevent elemental damage, such as a Warlord having an aura that prevents 5 elemental damage or the cleric having an at-will spell that protects against one element for 10 (warlord gets everyone at once in the aura, but is weaker than the spell that can cover one person per round). Magical items are probably available to give energy resist.

I think they'll keep it as resist is now, take x damage off the top (it's so easy that way!) but they'll keep the X much lower (a 2nd level spell giving 30 resist at 11th lvl? A 4th lvl spell giving 30 resist to the whole party? WAY to much resistance in 3.5!). Maybe maxing at 15 for players, 30 for creatures who were immune to it in previous editions.

I don't think they'll go with the Protection From Energy route mainly due to statements about buffs lasting the encounter and not needing to recalc as things run out. I think once you are buffs, you stay that way unless something can dispel or negate the effect...I don't think they'll be many effects that will simply run out.

I don't think they'll go with the threshold route, only because I read the red dragon entry as a sort of dispelling effect, not a threshold. It does say the breath can rip the fire resist right off of you, and sure that would fit within a threshold system (and would allow a red dragon to kill a fire elemental with its breath, which I recall from somewhere, but don't remember where), but my initial reaction was some sort of spell negation/dispelling effect rider on the breath, and I'm just sticking with my initial feeling on this one. It's not a bad idea though.

 

[Dausuul]

Keep in mind that the pit fiend's mace is both Fire and Weapon type. That may well mean you have to have resistance to both Fire and Weapons in order to negate it. Simple fire resistance might not be enough.