Speeding up combat: Ditching the Damage rolls.

[GameDoc]

After reading Geek Ken's post on Thadeous's blog, I was inspired to reply with a blog post of my own. As it turns out, several other folks on this thread are of the same opinion as I am: The time-consuming part of combat is players (and the DM) deciding what they want to do, not rolling the dice and doing the math.

I say this in part because we use MapTool for my online Friday night game, which means that the computer does the math for us. I also say it because I've noticed combats being longer now that the PCs are 8th level compared to when they were 1st level. What's changed is that they have far more options at their disposal now than they did back then.

It takes time to mull over your options and make a decision, but that decision process is what I think a lot of people find to be fun about combat in 4e. They LIKE the tactics. Speeding up combat without taking that process away seems like it would be extremely difficult.

For the past few sessions in the game I run, I have halved the HP of monsters and doubled their damage so that combat goes quicker, but the PC's are still in danger of losing their own HP. It doesn't necessarily speed up the players' turns, but it cuts down on the number of turns needed to get through the combat.

The only problem I have noted is that I tend to use controllers as the monster leaders and they often don't have enough rounds to unleash all their powers or tactics. I am thinking about just giving all leaders an action point to let them set up their strategy before the PC's knock it to pieces.

I guess that makes my strategy to simply resign myself to the fact that player's are going to the biggest clock eaters in the equation and adjust the other factors to accommodate them.

 

[moxcamel]

It's a well-written piece (and kudos on that, so many gaming blogs drive me nuts with the quality of the writing), but I think the crux of your position is flawed. You're assuming that dice rolling is what slows combat down. It's been my experience that the dice rolling takes up a very minimum amount of time, but the time leading up to that roll is what takes so dang long. Rolling the dice is just picking up some little plastic balls, dropping them, and then doing some simple math. Getting the player to actually toss those little pieces of plastic--well that's the real trick.

If you've ever gamed with a group of players who know the rules, know their characters, and know how to play their character well, you'd be amazed at how fast combat goes. In games like this, it's often the DM who's holding things up because he might not be as familiar with the monsters he's running as the players are with their own characters, and that's a pretty good problem to have.

Off-topic player interaction also slows combat. One player makes a joke and before you know it the whole table is involved in a "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!" reproduction. Rules lawyers, game historians ("this reminds me of the time back in 1987...we were surrounded by Drow...or was it Kuo Toa? No I think it was Dro...or maybe Githyanki?"), cell phones, spouses yelling from the other room, pizza delivery (granted, this is one of the very few excusable combat interruptors), the guy checking his email on the laptop you asked him to please not have at the table...all these things are much bigger combat slow-downs than dice.

If you want fast combats, all the house rules and virtual iPad dice in the world aren't going to help. Experienced players who take the time to know the game and how to play their characters are what make fast combats. Minimizing out of game distractions helps a lot too. Anything else is just painting flames on the side of your minivan, hoping they make it go faster.

 

[LostSoul]

Using different forms of initiative instead of turn-by-turn can help speed up decision making time.

I use a simultaneous initiative system that has all players make their decisions at the same time (at the beginning of the round) in response to the same set of circumstances.

 

[Leorix]

I have been DMing for ages and when we moved to playing 4e we felt encounters were taking too long as well. Initially that was due to not being familiar with the system but even afterwards it still could take 3-4 hours per normal encounter. We even lost a player because he felt bored waiting for his turn to come round.

We had players who futz around on their turn trying to make the optimal choice (ie. afraid to make a mistake). We had players who took too long working out which damage dice to roll or even longer adding the results up.

I read forums, discussed the issue with my players and tried implementing a 30-second rule, but nothing made a huge impact.

Now, I love using digital support (Maptools, Combat Manager etc.) and my players love it too, but I was trying to use Combat Manager to track everything, even the conditions of my players. I also had the damage rolls on my monsters to worry about. This all meant that I was taking much longer that I should have.

The solution? I stopped tracking my players condition and made them do it again. I also started using average damage for my monsters (worked out beforehand) to minimise dice rolling. I also allowed any of my players the use of average instead of rolling (like this guy with disabled hands) and some have taken this on. Finally, when a player knocks a monster down to just a few hp, I often fudge it so that the monster dies instead of dragging it out another round (unless it's good for the story somehow).

Result: instant improvement and sometimes half the time of previous encounters (which means more encounters per session and faster levelling up)!

 

[Chzbro]

My group played with average damage for quite some time. The difference in speed is very small, while the impact on "fun" is pretty significant.

In our game, any player who wishes to use average damage can...but no one does.

Using average damage for the monsters is less of a problem, but we don't do that anymore either. I could see us going back to that, but only because it simplifies things for the DM who has to keep track of a lot of different damage dice, not because it makes things significantly faster.

 

[surfarcher]

Meh damage doesn't slow my group mush. They roll a single damage die with to-hit rolls.

I'm in the group that says the biggest slowdown is in them deciding what power they'll use.

My fix was introducing rewards for finishing your turn in under 2 mins. The reward is a chip. The chip is +1 to any die roll. The chips don't stack but you can "buy" a the next level of plus for three of the current level. So 3x +1 = +2, 3x +2 = +3. The +3 can also be used as "promote any confirmed hit to a critical hit".

My system speeds up combat a lot.

As always, YMMV.

 

[moxcamel]

Meh damage doesn't slow my group mush. They roll a single damage die with to-hit rolls.

I'm in the group that says the biggest slowdown is in them deciding what power they'll use.

My fix was introducing rewards for finishing your turn in under 2 mins. The reward is a chip. The chip is +1 to any die roll. The chips don't stack but you can "buy" a the next level of plus for three of the current level. So 3x +1 = +2, 3x +2 = +3. The +3 can also be used as "promote any confirmed hit to a critical hit".

My system speeds up combat a lot.

As always, YMMV.

Excellent reward system! When my group was first learning 3e I would hand out a 5% xp bonus if we finished the fight in under a pre-determined time. Sadly this didn't seem to be quite the carrot I thought it would be, but I bet handing out +1 "tokens" would have got their attention.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I've had issues with this in the past. Especially back in the 3.x days where casters (particularly spontaneous ones) would have an obscene number of spells and powers to draw from at higher levels.

I'm hoping that the streamlined number of options available to 4e and Essentials characters can help mitigate this, but having been a player in 4e, this doesn't seem to be the case all the time. Again, especially at higher levels.

I think familiarity with your character and tactical options is key, probably much more so than a separate damage roll. Part of the issue seems to stem from the fact that you want to try and be effective as possible ever single turn, and not commit any tactical blunders. While this may be an admirable goal, the fact is combat is chaotic, and the DM will probably not choose optimally all the time (especially not with 5 monsters and a pile of minions to worry about), so you shouldn't worry about the odd mistake as a player. If anything it adds verisimilitude to the fight, making it less like watching a game of chess unfold and more like the action-packed cinematic combat it is supposed to replicate in your imagination.

The other big combat no-nos that I have seen include using too many high HP brutes and high-defence soldier monsters, or too many monsters above character level. This was particularly a problem before where the DMG said it was ok to go even as high as Level +4. I can tell you from personal experience playing in a game like that, is that all you get for your efforts is a long, drawn out whiff-fest, while the monster slowly whittles down PC hit points. Nobody has fun.

I've heard that using MM3 and Monster Vault creatures really helps with this, so I am taking that to heart when I take my kick at the 4e can as DM.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I'm hoping that the streamlined number of options available to 4e and Essentials characters can help mitigate this, but having been a player in 4e, this doesn't seem to be the case all the time. Again, especially at higher levels.

I've noticed that most of the delays in my groups are from the people either (a) trying to always do the tactically optimal thing (this one guy fails spectacularly at that...it'd be funnier if he didn't take forever), or (b) having trouble with math.

(a) players need to realize that the game very rarely requires that level of skill.

(b), honestly, it's hard if you can't do math well on the fly, especially if your build encourages a lot of floating modifiers. 4e has a lot of floating modifiers, but I remember, when playing my goliath rage-priest in 3.5, taking most of the entire turn figuring out my damage for the next round between rage, power attack, and smites. 4e has nothing on that so far.

One thing that helps me is that I make my own power cards with the attack equations pre-written, and the usual modifiers on them. Like, when using a Bloodthirsty weapon and Gauntlets of Blood, I have the "If bloodied, +1 to hit, +8 to damage" written below the main equation. I also try to go for abilities and items that I can bake in that mean I don't have to go hunting for item powers.

Brad

 

[Ahrimon]

Getting players to accept that they can make mistakes and that they don't have to do it "Perfect" can do wonders in speeding things up.

Sure, there may be the occasional ribbing when someone really dorks things up. But as long as the DM recognizes that the players are playing fast and loose and doesn't take advantage of it things should be fine. It does help if the players are friends. Friends are more likely to take a little bit of ribbing when they know the person.

The hard part is getting the players to accept that they don't have to make every action the most effective action possible.