Spell DC variant

[Zhnov]

Spell DCs

Currently: 10+ spell level+ ability modifier

House Rule: 10+ (caster level/2)+ ability modifier

What are your thoughts on this? What do you use, if houseruled?


The objective here is to give additional benefit to being a higher level spellcaster... higher the level, the more difficult it is to resist, while giving some more juice to a number of sometimes forgotten lower level spells.

Master Orlic Pazafar
The Scribbler's Knoll

 

[Clay_More]

The highest possible spell DC would not increase much, since you normally receive an increase in spell level every second level as Wizard / Sorc. Just we warned though, Bards, Rangers and Paladins would benefit a whole lot more, since they have limited spell capacity (normally, the highest level spell for a Ranger / Paladin is 4 th. level which means a +4 DC increase. With these rules, the DC would increase to a maximum of +10 from Caster Level/2).

It would perhaps need to be Caster Level/2 for Wiz, Sor, Drd & Clr and Caster Level/3 for Bard and Caster Level/4 for Ran, Pal & other similar classes/prc's.

Be warned though, it will increase the potential of the wizard even more (and they are pretty powerful as is). Since the caster level/2 increase to spell DC is at least as high as the one normally provided by spell level, the DC's of all spells below the casters highest spell level would increase significantly in contrast to a spell caster using normal spell DC estimation. My idea would be to make it Caster Level/3 for Wiz/Sor/Drd/Clr is anything, then it would mean that the DC for their low level spells would be higher and the DC for their high level spells would be lower (thus levelling the advantage out a little).

 

[Kerrick]

I came up with a similar thing, except mine is 10 + spell level + 1/2 caster level + ability mod. After some testing, I discovered that the saves at low levels remain pretty much the same, but they increase quickly after 5th level or so. That fireball from the 20th-level sorcerer is going to hurt now (figure he's got a 19 Cha; save DC 28 - eat that, fighter!). Note that this system will likely NOT work with players who squeeze every drop they can from feats like Spell Penetration and Spell Focus; our group doesn't, so it works well for us.

 

[Staffan]

I came up with a similar thing, except mine is 10 + spell level + 1/2 caster level + ability mod.

So, without bringing in feats and gear into the situation, a 17th level wizard casting wail of the banshee would have a save DC of 32 (assuming a starting Int of 16 and all stat increases going there), wheras a 17th level fighter would try to resist that with a Fort save of +12 (base +10, Con-modifier +2 - the fighter's stat modifers are more likely to go toward Str than Con) or so? And please note that that's supposed to be the fighter's good save.

OK, equipment skews things a wee bit more in the fighter's favor (mainly cloaks of resistance - stat boosters would either be neutral or work in the wizard's favor), but that's still way broken.

 

[Clay_More]

I wouldn't mind having a fix that levelled it out some more. Its okay if low-level spells have the same save DC as high level ones, as long as they arent over the top. Since low-level spells already have less effect than high level spells, its not that fair that they also become easy to ignore due to their low DC's.

 

[DaveStebbins]

Either way there's a trade off. If you use spell level, everyone casts spells of the same level with the same DC (ignoring stat and feat differences) regardless of the level of the wizard.

If you use caster level divided by two, all of a caster's spells have the same DC, whether first level spell or ninth.

If you try to set up combinations of the two, it gets difficult to figure out, or could unbalance things one way or the other (as Staffan points out).

It's all a matter of what you feel comfortable with. Personally, I prefer the rules as written. A first level spell has only so much power, regardless of who's casting it. Besides, stat-boosters and feats tend to up the DC's for higher level casters. YMMV.

-Dave
[edit - fat fingers typo]

 

[Zhnov]

Overall, good points made by everyone--surely some things to consider.

I think we'll stick with the rules as written for now, perhaps we'll look at fiddling with some of the feats to offer additional DC increases besides the existing Spell Focus series, perhaps Greater Epic Spell Focus, at DC +8.

Orlic

 

[Stalker0]

Making the change makes a mage more fighterish in the sense he doesn't have to worry about saving spells as much, he can cast a lot more, worrying more about the effect, then actually passing the save.

However, I think mages and fighters are pretty balanced as is, and this is a definate increase to mages' power, but the big question is whether in some ways it will make it easier for fighters.

Here's what I mean. As a mage, if all my spells have equal strength to pass, then I might think. You know casting that disintegrate might be good, but I'd rather save that.... why not go for the fireball.

They aren't pushed to bust out there best stuff simply to beat the saves, which might help some fighters in the long run. Overall though I think it would make mages stronger.


One curb you might put on a system like this would be the save develops based on caster level, but is capped by spell level.

Something like the max spell DC for a spell is 10 + spell level squard+ ability mod. So a 20th level mage with a +5 int, could have a DC 16 on his 1st levels, DC 19 on 2nd level, DC 23 on 3rd, and DC 25 for 4th level and up.