spell focus requires 13 Cha?

[TimeOut]

If you change the feat to Wis, you give the Orb control wizards an even greater incentive to max Wis instead of Int.
If you change the feat to Int, every wizard will take it. You could make it a class feature in this case.

Of course, if you want to change it. Feel free. Its your game and your fun.

But I think it is one of the few things that provide a player with reasons not to optimize his ability scores.

OT: The wizard description is totally stupid. It counts Dex as the third most important stat, so you can't totally rely on that.

 

[evilbob]

I think that is the goal - not to make wizards blow 2 points, but to make it so not every wizard has spell focus.

Here's the thing: wizards value Int, Dex, and Wis according to the description in the book and according to the vast majority of their powers and abilities. Con would be the closest thing to a fourth, especially with staff defense. I don't have my book with me so I can't quote exact numbers, but I honestly don't remember any wizard powers that use Str or Cha. That said, not every wizard is going to have 15 Dex - which makes things like Arcane Reach easy enough to understand. That makes sense: it's a good ability, but you need your least useful but still wizard-based stat to get it. Maybe you focused in Wis instead - so the Dex tree line is a bit harder for you to reach. That's ok; that's an interesting choice. Even some of the +1 damage to X type feats require Con or Dex, and those are also useful feats for wizards. Those are still all good: it makes for interesting choices.

But the only place I have seen anything talking about a wizard's Cha score is that one feat that quite frankly all wizards are going to want. I don't mind having to give up something within the realm of "being a wizard," but to force a wizard to grab something that is completely unrelated just seems wrong. That's not an interesting choice: that's a complete side-bar.

 

[evilbob]

If you change the feat to Wis, you give the Orb control wizards an even greater incentive to max Wis instead of Int.
If you change the feat to Int, every wizard will take it. You could make it a class feature in this case.

Well, I don't see the problem with the first one, since it really doesn't matter what kind of wizard you are: you're going to max Int or you won't hit anything, ever. So I disagree with the first sentence.

Your subsequent sentence is right, though. How's this for a class feature for wizards, then:
Wizard 11: You do not gain a feat at level 11. You gain the benefits of the Spell Focus feat.

That's just me being silly, but still: I think making this feat a more "Orb" or even "Staff" powered feat is fine. That's still an interesting choice. But Cha? No. That's random. It might as well have been Str (although then you'd have a lot of well-armored wizards running around).

Maybe it should be changed to Con 15. Or even Wis 17. Both of those are more interesting than Cha 13.

 

[Felon]

Yeah, see, on the one hand we have this complaint, and then on the other hand scads of threads complaining that the game encourages dump stats and requires only that your single primary stat be high. Turns out, not when you look at the whole picture.

Actually, it turns out that one example is not the whole picture. The dump-stat encouragement applies in some cases, not so much in others. The issues about playing a fast/smart character is still out there. The usefulness of Intelligence to a rogue is still pretty close to nil.

 

[Mistwell]

Here's the thing: wizards value Int, Dex, and Wis according to the description in the book and according to the vast majority of their powers and abilities. Con would be the closest thing to a fourth, especially with staff defense. I don't have my book with me so I can't quote exact numbers, but I honestly don't remember any wizard powers that use Str or Cha.

There are certainly not many, Wizard of the Spiral Tower, Radiant Censor power, uses charisma. But yeah, not many.

But when you take feats into account, if you want Arcane Reach you need a good Dex, and if you want Spell Focus you need an OK Charisma, and if you want decent hit points you need Con. Overall, that is enough incentive to not just max both Intelligence and Wisdom and dump everything else. As far as I can tell, only Strength is a dump stat for a wizard (and I am OK with that).

 

[TimeOut]

Well, I don't see the problem with the first one, since it really doesn't matter what kind of wizard you are: you're going to max Int or you won't hit anything, ever. So I disagree with the first sentence.

According to certain char optimization threads, there might be a case where Wis > Int, if you plan on abusing Orb mastery to turn certain spells into "save or die" versions.

I do not agree with these ideas, but they are there.

Wizard 11: You do not gain a feat at level 11. You gain the benefits of the Spell Focus feat.

That would make the class fairly unique, because they would be the only one to gain a feature at a later level.

If you want to have every wizard Spell Focus, maybe you could introduce it at first level and change its effect based on the actual tier.

Spell Focus (wizard class feature): Creatures that attempt saving throws against your wizard powers take a -1 penalty to the rolls. Increase this penalty to -2 at 11th level and to -3 at 21th level.

This would make it a core feature (very controllish) but still in line with other scaling class features.

 

[ryryguy]

Here's the thing: wizards value Int, Dex, and Wis according to the description in the book and according to the vast majority of their powers and abilities. Con would be the closest thing to a fourth, especially with staff defense. I don't have my book with me so I can't quote exact numbers, but I honestly don't remember any wizard powers that use Str or Cha. That said, not every wizard is going to have 15 Dex - which makes things like Arcane Reach easy enough to understand. That makes sense: it's a good ability, but you need your least useful but still wizard-based stat to get it. Maybe you focused in Wis instead - so the Dex tree line is a bit harder for you to reach. That's ok; that's an interesting choice. Even some of the +1 damage to X type feats require Con or Dex, and those are also useful feats for wizards. Those are still all good: it makes for interesting choices.

But the only place I have seen anything talking about a wizard's Cha score is that one feat that quite frankly all wizards are going to want. I don't mind having to give up something within the realm of "being a wizard," but to force a wizard to grab something that is completely unrelated just seems wrong. That's not an interesting choice: that's a complete side-bar.

If Cha is the least useful of the stats for wizards (barring Str I guess), then putting a Cha requirement on a feat is one of the most restricting requirements a designer can choose. So, since the 4e designers chose that requirement for this feat, it seems safe to say they wanted to highly restrict access to it.

You can disagree that access to this feat should be so restricted, but the design intention seems clear. You keep talking as if a wizard must take this feat, which is clearly not the case - for one thing, wizard is the only class that can get a feat like this, correct? So are clerics and warlocks useless since they can't get it?

But hey, if that feat is so nice that you feel absolutely compelled to take it, then why isn't it worth taking a point or two away from Wis or even Int to get it? It seems to me that it is indeed an interesting choice, or else you wouldn't be so agonized about it.

 

[frankthedm]

You can disagree that access to this feat should be so restricted, but the design intention seems clear. You keep talking as if a wizard must take this feat, which is clearly not the case - for one thing, wizard is the only class that can get a feat like this, correct? So are clerics and warlocks useless since they can't get it?

But hey, if that feat is so nice that you feel absolutely compelled to take it, then why isn't it worth taking a point or two away from Wis or even Int to get it? It seems to me that it is indeed an interesting choice, or else you wouldn't be so agonized about it.

I'd be compelled to take it with any character that could! Penalizing saves is a huge deal given how often foes will have to roll them. Making the wizard pay for such a precious thing is a great idea. Point buy far to easily degrades into "Eighteens and Eights", thankfully this discourages that a bit.

 

[Mistwell]

Well, I don't see the problem with the first one, since it really doesn't matter what kind of wizard you are: you're going to max Int or you won't hit anything, ever. So I disagree with the first sentence.

I disagree. If you check character optimization threads on Wizards, or read the various Wizard handbooks being generated right now, a slight majority seem to think that the best Wizard is optimized for max Wis, with Int being the second stat (and of course you raise both as you get stat raises). They usually use various other abilities (like elven precision or action surge) to compensate for the loss of that +1 to hit, in exchange for the -1 to the targets saves versus effects like sleep. And though there is a slight lack of things that can increase your attack bonus, there is even more of a lack of things that can decrease the targets saves (though the use of an orb).

There are lots and lots of threads on this topic, and while opinions differ, I think you cannot really say you know for sure that you have to "max Int or else you won't hit anything, ever." Even the uber min/maxers don't agree on this point.

 

[Lab_Monkey]

Astral Fire suffers from the same problem: Cha and Dex

Honestly, I'm finding Dex to be sub-optimal for everything but a couple feats and wand-wielding wizards. Those heroic tier feats (such as astral fire, raging storm, etc.) definitely makes Eladrin a more appealing choice.

Likewise- Astral Fire and Spell Focus make Tieflings surprisingly good wizards.