D&D 5E Spell level of Warlock Invocations for Dispel Magic DC

[WizardOfFrobozz]

What spell level should be used to determine the DC for dispelling persistent magical effects created by a warlock invocation that either (1) doesn't explicitly involve casting a spell per se, e.g., Cloak of Flies, or (2) is written to allow casting of a spell without using a spell slot or explicitly leveling the spell?

The default answer that comes to mind is "Warlock invocations should all be considered to be 'cast' at the level of the Warlock's spell slots unless explicitly stated otherwise (e.g., Fiendish Vigor)." Any good arguments for taking a different approach?

 

[jgsugden]

Thanks for the replies. I will look for your previous posts on these ideas. It sounds like for your campaign they work fine, but I imagine most campaigns include spellcasting opponents more often than yours do, so these spells would be more valuable. I also think spellcasting in 5th edition and the concentration mechanic changes the game considerably.

There are few high level spellcasters, but a lot of lower level spellcasters in most communities, tribes, etc... It was a huge adjustment to account for concnetration when adapting these spells. They date back to the 80s and 90s and cover editions from AD&D to present.

Glad to hear that it is not automatic for low level spells. Do you allow casters to recognize spells as they are being cast?

It can be done as a reaction or as part of any other reaction related to a spell.[/quote]If not, I can certainly see how that gamble offsets the value of the spell and balances it well. I give characters a chance to recognize the spell being cast to decide if they want to cast counterspell or not.[/quote]The "gamble" remains, but it isn't where you're indicating - it is in whether the spells you'll face that day can be deflected. If not, and you prepare deflection rather than counterspell ... bad news.

Does the original caster know their spell was delayed? If not, I could see delaying a fireball, falling back out of the AoE, the original caster and/or their allies advance and get caught in their own fireball. If they know it was delayed, this becomes a non-issue.

Not automatically, but there is an arcana role to figure it out. I like it when the monsters/NPCs get nailed by their own fireball/etc... this way. It is evocative and makes the heroes feel like big dang heroes that did something cool. I play it up as frustrating because it makes it sweeter for the players, but it is super cool to see these things work in the hands of PCs - and again, the number of NPCs using them is limited - but put in the hands of PCs designed to be spell battlers.

Yes, a spell that makes one creature immune to one spell sounds good as a 4th level spell. A spell that blocks a single spell for everyone within 60 feet of the caster sounds like a higher level spell, even with a counterspell roll, IMO.

In my experience, the 4th level version fo the spell is often a waste because nobody attempts to cast the spell. At 6th level, it is a big enough expenditure of resources that it is far from a problem - and very rarely is any better than a counterspell cast at the same level because people do not often try to cast the same spell over and over - and if tey do, it is rare tat you correctly anticipate it.

Thanks again for sharing!

No problem - I can understand the perspectives, but I highly advise trying out the ideas yourself in some mocked up dungeon delving. You'll see that a.) It is hard to fit them into prepared spells, b.) they all have some drawbacks that are bigger than you anticipate, and c.) nothing here is problematic. There are castings of these spells that give PCs a big success - but that is true of any spell worth casting. With these, there are also situations in which they are an utter waste of your reaction, slot and/or prepared spell.

 

[Charlaquin]

Quite often, in published adventures, you see non-spell magical effects which can be dispelled with a certain level of Dispel Magic. But these are set by the adventure creator, there is no hard rule. For example, here is one from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel:

The problem with these exceptions is that, if the players know how Dispel Magic typically works, they have no reason to expect it should dispel this non-spell magical effect when it doesn’t work on any other.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The problem with these exceptions is that, if the players know how Dispel Magic typically works, they have no reason to expect it should dispel this non-spell magical effect when it doesn’t work on any other.

My players dispelled it. First thing they tried. They where worried that smashing the crystal might harm the person inside. It's also described as a way of disarming magical traps in the DMG and XG.

A successful dispel magic (DC 13) cast on the statue destroys the trap.

-DMG p122​

I.e. Dispel Magic works on spells and on other magical effects as specified in the adventure text.

 

[jgsugden]

The problem with these exceptions is that, if the players know how Dispel Magic typically works, they have no reason to expect it should dispel this non-spell magical effect when it doesn’t work on any other.

There are ways around this issue. The first is to bring the adventure more clearly under RAW by either giving a passive arcana or active arcana roll to allow the players to identify that the effect in question was created by a spell found outside the published spell lists.

While I use the specific rules for dispel magic that it has to be dispelling a spell, it is harder in my setting to tell when you're dealing with a spell or another magical effect because roughly half of the spells that PCs encounter are homebrew or taken from 3rd party sourcres. If you encounter a glistening field of raiant purple energy surrounding a chest, you don't know if it is a monster, a spell effect, a magical emanation of non spell origin or somethign else.