Spell Lists: Really Necessary?

[the Jester]

The real balance issue in your scenario is that clerics are suddenly much, much better than wizards and sorcerers. The arcanist becomes a retarded step child to a divine caster, who can do everything the arcanist can but with twice the hit points, better saves and better armor.

 

[drothgery]

The real balance issue in your scenario is that clerics are suddenly much, much better than wizards and sorcerers.

Apparently you played some bizzaro 3.x where clerics weren't much, much better than wizards and sorcerers.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hm.

I wonder what would happen if clerics stepped back to a 3/4 caster level progression.

They'd be "fighting men" at 1st level again.

 

[Runestar]

Apparently you played some bizzaro 3.x where clerics weren't much, much better than wizards and sorcerers.

Weren't clerics caught in a 4-way tie for most powerful class with wizards, druids and artificers?

 

[Psion]

Weren't clerics caught in a 4-way tie for most powerful class with wizards, druids and artificers?

No. Clerics (and druids), by my estimation pretty much started off good and got better. They were originally stronger in combat and more resilient, but had a less utilitarian spell list. Supplements, however, proceeded to heap on more and more useful spells, really on par with the wizard, which coupled with a default mechanic that automatically expanded their known spells to include their entire spell list contrived to make them the pinnacle of power in the game.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

No. Clerics (and druids), by my estimation pretty much started off good and got better. They were originally stronger in combat and more resilient, but had a less utilitarian spell list. Supplements, however, proceeded to heap on more and more useful spells, really on par with the wizard, which coupled with a default mechanic that automatically expanded their known spells to include their entire spell list contrived to make them the pinnacle of power in the game.

There's a lesson there somewhere...

 

[Staffan]

You might want to check out Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. Monte Cook makes a unified spell system for his D&D variant and then deals with the particulars that this involves. Read his design journal for Arcana Unearthed Magic here.

AU solves the issue in a different way: by splitting spells up by difficulty, much like weapons. There are Simple, Complex, and Exotic spells. All caster classes have access to all Simple spells. The Magister has access to all Complex spells as well.

You can expand your selection through feats: one feat buys access to either all Complex spells of one level, or a single Exotic spell. There are also feats that give you a more narrow, but complete boost - taking the Earth Magic feat will let any caster cast Complex Earth spells, and a Magister will be able to cast any Exotic Earth spell. Finally, Greenbonds (sort of a cleric/druid class) can cast any Positive Energy or Plant spell, and Witches get full access to spells with a certain descriptor (depending on which type of witch they are) at 9th level.

Another thing about the AU system is that only the Magister and Greenbond have what D&D would call "full" casting progression (new spell levels at each odd class level). The others (Mageblade, Runethane, and Witch) have a reduced progression, which is on the whole about as good as a D&D Bard's (start with "0" level 1 spells at level 1, and get access to new spell levels with 0 spells at levels 4, 7, 10, and so on). These classes, on the other hand, have other magical or martial abilities that make up for it.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I promised myself I'd never run 3e again, but this thread has made me really want to run a very specific kind of gestalt game. All PCs are sorcerer-warblades with access to all spell lists, no cross-class skills and good Reflex saves. I think it'd be interesting to see what choices the players made when designing their PCs.

TS

 

[Herobizkit]

I've never enjoyed D&D clerics (and magic in general) as-is, so I made some changes for my homebrew campaign:

a) The Cleric base class has been replaced by the Cloistered Cleric variant from the UA.

b) The Wizard base class has been replaced by the Sorcerer.

b) All casters are now spontaneous casters and learn spells as sorcerers/favored souls.

c) All classes with spells get +1 spell/day just like the sorcerer, too.

d) Classes who didn't originally have spontaneous spellcasting now learn their full spell list as Warmages do.

It's still not perfect, but serves my campaign's take on magic. I'm also using the Spell Ritual rules from d20 modern.

I may adopt the Elements of Mythic Earth system in place of (or even adjacent to) this current magic system -- maybe I can bring back "Wizards" who use this unique magic...