Spell Lists: Really Necessary?

[pawsplay]

When you are talking combat spells: yes, there are balance issues. It addresses this in the DMG. The wizard is made to be more vulnerable but have more powerful damaging spells. The cleric has access to heavy armor and better FORT saves.

In practice, this doesn't always work out. Many Cleric spells are Will based and have status effects, making them equivalent, and many Cleric spells are not based on energy damage or only partially.

 

[delericho]

In 3e, I think the spell lists are a necessity. Otherwise, Clerics and Druids become too powerful.

However, you could adjust the spell progressions of Clerics and Druids to compensate - give them fewer spells per day, and slower access to various spell levels.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Thanks everyone. I didn't start this topic so much to gauge any particular house rule, just to get an interesting discussion going and find out how people view the purpose of spell lists.

TS

 

[Oni]

Well I've often thought that in 3e the sorcerer would be much more interesting in if it were to be allowed to choose from any spell list. I consider opening up the list to be a marginal increase to potential power from possible synergies and the chance of added versatility, but I feel it is balanced by the cost of choice. Choosing any given spell means giving something else up.

This would also be true on any given day with the wizard, but their main strength lies in their ability to adapt day to day so I would say they are less balanced in a situation where they can simply select anything they want. Because you've given them an even greater ability to adapt to situations at zero cost.

That said I have in the past advocated the idea that wizards should be able to cast some healing spells as that spreads the burden of what is considered by many people to be an "unfun" job over more than one character, essentially providing balance in the form of expectation (that is to say if they could heal, the expectation would be for some contribution in that form thus limiting their offensive action somewhat). Of course the 3e cleric was built around the idea that healing is unfun and would have to be rebalanced a bit if that expectation were to be lowered on them.

 

[Thanee]

Balance-wise. Maybe a bit. Clerics with all the powerful arcane spells would be even more powerful, obviously.

But mostly the seperate lists add some distinctiveness to the major casting classes, which I consider a good thing.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Gentlegamer]

I've been wondering about this, too. I'm conceptualizing it as eliminating the divine classes, and having all spellcasters be wizards (or sorcerers). Fighting clerics would be multiclassed Fighter(Warrior)/Wizards as suggested above. Clerical and Druid hierarchy would be handled as Prestige Classes (I generally treat all classes selected after first level as a prestige class with mechanical and "role-playing" prerequisites).

 

[Voadam]

No problem there; the Archivist, for all intents and purposes, is a Wizard with access to divine spells. It's the Druid, Cleric, and Favored Soul casting Weird, Time Stop, Shapechange, etc. that would be the problem. Arcane spells are absolutely superior to divine spells, and should not be in the hands of anyone less squishy than a Sorceror. I mean, unless you want a game in which divine classes are all categorically better than all the other classes. It could make for a neat campaign idea, if your players are on board with it.

The bolded part made me smile. Would be?

I agree a little with your main point though. Adding cleric spells to a sorcerer or wizard is no real problem. The more people curing in the party the better and the personal buffs won't do as much for a sorcerer as they would for a cleric. Expanding the arcane divinations would not be a real problem either IMO.

I feel adding on to the cleric and druid lists with the arcane combat and utility spells that are not themed for them would be an issue. Clerics in full plate with magic missiles and fireballs would not be combat balanced against wizards or sorcerers doing the same thing and go against the flavor and theme of the cleric class' magic IMO.

Turning clerics and druids into spontaneous casters such as the UA variant is one way to add new spells to their list and keep them balanced, but their magic is supposed to be themed and not as entirely combat powerful as a sorcerer's or wizard's.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

It's the Druid...casting...Shapechange

Jeez, dude, RTFM!

 

[Thanee]

Heh. I was just going to post something about the tone, but I guess it's alright to offend oneself.

Bye
Thanee

 

[pawsplay]

Thanks everyone. I didn't start this topic so much to gauge any particular house rule, just to get an interesting discussion going and find out how people view the purpose of spell lists.

TS

That's a somewhat different question. The purpose of spell lists is mainly enforce archetypal differences. Each list carries flavor, an implicit role, and opportunity costs. But you could restructure how the lists are formed... see the Shugenja for a different way to slice the pie.