Spelljammer Spelljammer, 5e, and the general angst against all things space

[Morrus]

Sorry, but I just could not get past the part where Star Wars is not Sci-Fi unless it is Sci-Fi but even then it is not real Sci-Fi.

I haven't read the article, but science fiction authors distinguish between the sci-fi and science fantasy genres. Whether you do or not is another matter, but it's fairly commonly understood that Doctor Who and Asimov are very different genres of fiction.

Star Wars is not sci-fi. It's science fantasy (it's science is basically magic- not just the Force, but the hyperdrives, etc.) That's not a criticism in the slightest, but it is a very different genre to harder science fiction.

Otherwise, Commando and Pretty Woman are the same genre, because they're both set on late 20th Century Earth.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I really like Spelljammer. I like the crystal spheres and the Phlogiston, and Imperial Elven Federation of Planets...er I mean Armada.

It seems like a lot of people like bits and pieces of Spelljammer, but I guess to me that's barely liking it at all. I mean, sure, you can always say you like everything except giff and giant space hamsters (or whatever). But if you don't want crystal spheres you aren't playing Spelljammer--you're playing your own custom D&D in Space game. It's like saying you're playing a Forgotten Realms campaign because you transplant the Zhentarim and some ghostwise halflings to a home brew world.

I also don't really think it's accurate to look at it as merely a way of connecting other campaign settings. It can do that in the same way Planescape can, but it's still its own setting. There is plenty of lore and feel in Spelljammer to play an entire campaign without ever landing on a known campaign setting world if you don't want to.

The beauty of the 2e multiverse was that they left that choice to you. You could hop between a bunch of worlds using the planes or the Phlogiston, or you could play in a particular world, or you could never leave space or never leave the planes. (5e seems to be taking a similar angle on how the multiverse is connected, but with it left a little bit more open to individual interpretation.)

Whenever I run a D&D game, it's run in the multiverse--and it's always been that way. If Spelljamming, or the Planes, or whatever have nothing to do with the game, then they may never make an appearance, and the players will have absolutely no idea that they are in a multiverse with giant space hamsters powering spaceships. But I know they are out there.

And every now and then it might make a difference. For instance, I was playing in a Ravenloft campaign, where we ended up trapped in some magical oubliette that we couldn't figure out how to escape from. I think the characters puzzled out that perhaps sunlight would do the trick, but we didn't have the ability to make any. So I suggested out of character (since the party's wizard might be smart enough to know about it) that a gate to the quasi-elemental plane of radiance might due the trick. The DM knew enough about the Inner Planes (mostly from me) to run with it, and it worked. (In retrospect, I'm not sure why Ravenloft let the gate open, but I'm sure the DM had some explanation based on us not using it to leave Ravenloft.) That's why I like playing in the multiverse. There is more stuff out there than you're ever going to use, but its there if it makes a good story.

For me, if you take out either the unique elements that make Spelljammer, or its ability to connect other worlds, you've just ruined it. It's not even worth calling it the same thing at that point.

As far as getting a resistant group interested--I'd invite them to play a stand alone adventure including Spelljamming elements. Make it a really good adventure. Show how the elements of Spelljammer that they might find silly can be played straight, and how it can connect to an otherwise normal campaign setting (unless you are wanting to get them interested in a space only game). After that, they still might not like it, but at least they've had a chance to make an informed decision.

 

[Shasarak]

I haven't read the article, but science fiction authors distinguish between the sci-fi and science fantasy genres. Whether you do or not is another matter, but it's fairly commonly understood that Doctor Who and Asimov are very different genres of fiction.

Star Wars is not sci-fi. It's science fantasy (it's science is basically magic- not just the Force, but the hyperdrives, etc.) That's not a criticism in the slightest, but it is a very different genre to harder science fiction.

Otherwise, Commando and Pretty Woman are the same genre, because they're both set on late 20th Century Earth.

You could make the argument that the "Force" is magic and on the other hand Psionics is also a very common trope to the Sci-Fi genre. I could easily imagine that Star Wars may appear differently had the movie been based around a 5 year mission exploring uncharted regions of space.

I was listening to a physicist talking about "Dark Matter" and how an estimated 80% of the universe is effectively transparent to us, so in the end it may turn out that Asimov ends up being at the Fantasy end of Sci-fi genre.

 

[Mercule]

I've never cared for Spelljammer. In truth, I know very little about it because the concept just turns me off. So... There's a reasonable chance I can proxy for your players. Don't take my opinions personally -- if I'm not at the table with you, I really don't care what you're playing.

For me, I just don't like proper sci-fi mixed with my fantasy. As a DM, one of the reasons I don't like tinker gnomes isn't just because they get played as comedy relief (though that didn't help), it's because they focus so much on tech. I've said I'll never play in a setting with gunpowder. I love Eberron, but it walks right up to the line with warforged.

I hate camp. I mean really hate it. I don't find Rocky Horror at all entertaining. It actually kind of sucks the fun out of a room, like that one friend with the weird, loud, nervous laugh. Spelljammer seems pretty campy. I mean, giant space hamsters? I don't know that I can roll my eyes enough without hurting myself.

If your players are like me, the worst way to do it would be to "sneak it in", as some folks have recommended. If we'd had the conversation and I told you "no", that would be a violation of trust. Even if we hadn't talked about it, at best, I'd grit my teeth and stew for the rest of the session. If we were gaming as friends, first, I'd probably express some displeasure and let you know that I didn't plan on continuing without a retcon. If our relationship was principally as gamers, I'd just start having conflicts with game night, a lot. Either way, my character and the campaign would have been tainted and potentially unsavable, in my eyes.

If the GM (aka you) had built up some trust and/or friendship, I could probably be talked into a short (say three month) trial of Spelljammer, outright. It even be open to using the 2E rules to save you from having to convert to 5E mechanics on a gamble. I may or may not end up liking it, but a "no hard feelings" trial wouldn't be a heartache. YMMV

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I liked a bunch of the races and stuff in Spelljammer, but I didn't like the nature of all these massive crystal spheres floating in a highly flammable fluid as being all of the Prime Material Plane. Also I think the attempts to shoehorn a lot of the other campaign worlds in caused the setting to suffer.

I would have the Rock of Bral be in it's own system, and not optionally in Greyspace, Realmspace or whatever.

I liked the ideas of Illithids and Beholders and Neogi as terrors out there. I liked the weirder elements like the Reigar, or the attempts to put races from Star Frontiers into the setting, and even Giant Space Hamsters and the Dohwar. I would even go far enough to have the Externals, or a Far Realm worshipping Ikrl Theocracy out there with their armies of Kroaths, Klicks, and N'sss.

 

[MG.0]

Both the idea of the crystal spheres and the phlogiston are indeed drawn from real-world pseudoscientific theories. Now, how they are expressed in D&D is a bit different, as is almost always the case, but their source is real-world.

I meant the implementation in AD&D of crystal spheres and phlogiston are inherently magical...they bear practically no resemblance to any ancient pseudo-scientific theories from Earth, despite using some of the same words. Saying Spelljammer is pseudo-scientific is like saying astrology is useful to NASA.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking Spelljammer is sci-fi. It is not. It is a fantastic setting. I think without it (or something to replace it) there is something missing in most fantasy worlds.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Also I think the attempts to shoehorn a lot of the other campaign worlds in caused the setting to suffer.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Part of the point of Spelljammer was that it (like Planescape) encompasses the entire multiverse. The idea that different campaign settings existed in different continuities was a 3e innovation.

If you mean some of the connections were a bit ham-fisted, then I'm with you on that. The original boxed set was the best because it kept Spelljamming pretty much unknown to groundlings. Later products seemed to imply that everyone who was anyone knew about it, and that was a big mistake.

Much like Dark Sun, the setting is better (great even) if you stick to the original boxed set and reject a lot of what came after.

I meant the implementation in AD&D of crystal spheres and phlogiston are inherently magical...they bear practically no resemblance to any ancient pseudo-scientific theories from Earth, despite using some of the same words. Saying Spelljammer is pseudo-scientific is like saying astrology is useful to NASA.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking Spelljammer is sci-fi. It is not. It is a fantastic setting. I think without it (or something to replace it) there is something missing in most fantasy worlds.

Exactly. I think if people are thinking that Spelljammer is sci-fi--or even science fantasy, they are already misunderstanding it drastically. It is complete fantasy, and is supposed to be.

The first words of the foreward in the original boxed set:

"Everything you know about space is wrong.

Infinite space; stars as flaming spheres of super-heated plasma; movement through space as a balance of scientific forces, thrust providing acceleration and maneuverability; scientific fact backing up natural phenomena; life on other planets built along blocks of carbon or silicon elments.

Forget all that. It's wrong.

You can get out of the atmosphere on the back of a roc; fly between the planets through a breathable ocean of air; sail between the crystal spheres that surround the inhabitable worlds on a river of magical energy; encounter roving mind flayers and beholders. The stars are living things in some areas, great bowls of fire in others, and pinpoints of light painted inside a sphere in others.

Welcomg to the SPELLJAMMER™ universe. It is a magical universe."

That probably needs to be read to every potential player so they know what's even being discussed when trying to sell them on a Spelljammer game.

 

[Vicaring]

I don't like my sci-fi cavorting about with my fantasy.

I'd rather have more strict sci-fi like Star Trek

Stop it. You made coffee come out of my nose.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I don't think of Spelljammer as sci-fi. It is definitely a fantastic setting. However, it uses fantastic elements to traverse the same ground as a lot of sci-fi.

For some folks, that makes it awesome. Others look at it and think "if I want to play a game set in space, then I'll play Star Wars" or whatever other game.

To me...and I think there is some truth to this, but a lot of it is likely just my perception...Spelljammer was designed to replace the Planes within the setting. 2nd Edition did a lot to soften some of the elements of D&D that had caused outrage among critics. So Devils became "Baatezu" and Demons became "Tanar'ri", and the setting material focused a lot less on the homes of those two groups.

So to me it seemed like a somewhat silly campaign concept designed to fit in the same space that the Planes once occupied. And then a few years later, TSR became more open to using the Planar aspects of the setting again...a lot of the controversy was dying down by then...and they came out with Planescape.

So my perception has always been of Spelljammer as being like a Planescape for kids. I know that's an oversimplification, but that's just how it always seemed to me.

 

[Dire Bare]

I meant the implementation in AD&D of crystal spheres and phlogiston are inherently magical...they bear practically no resemblance to any ancient pseudo-scientific theories from Earth, despite using some of the same words. Saying Spelljammer is pseudo-scientific is like saying astrology is useful to NASA.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking Spelljammer is sci-fi. It is not. It is a fantastic setting. I think without it (or something to replace it) there is something missing in most fantasy worlds.

As I explained in the post you quoted from, both concepts DO actually have a strong resemblance to their real-world counterparts, and not just in name. They certainly aren't identical, and they aren't scientific, or even pseudoscientific, they are most certainly magical. Spelljammer is definitely space fantasy, not science fantasy, but it does have sci-fi and pseudo-sci influences, just like D&D itself.

Of course, none of that is important when it comes down to, do you like the ideas! I've never heard of anyone making the mistake that Spelljammer is sci-fi, but I do think that many gamers feel a cognitive dissonance when adventuring in space and things don't work they way they do in the real-world, or in any sci-fi story that they have read.