Spelljammer...just wow

[Set]

Spelljammer kicked all sorts of booty.

One of my all-time favorite characters was a Gnomish Giant Space Werehamster. He was a Clockwork Mage. The rest of the party included a half-Ogre Magi (used the Ogrima powers from Al-Qadim added to the Half-Ogre stats), a Krynnish Minotaur and a Giff, so my character was the token 'little person.' He was never sure why the others called him 'Emergency Rations,' 'though...

My Xixchil Myrmidon, Tklrti Chktla (pronounced the way it looks), was also all sorts of fun.

 

[Razz]

Because it's not to everyone's tastes. It's probably a little too "bizarre" for mainstream fantasy. Look at the number of folks who dislike monks as a class simply because they don't conform to their genre expectations, and then extrapolate that out to embrace a fantasy concept of dyson spheres and luminiferous ether and magitek sailing ships.

It was bound to be a niche product, if that. That it was created as a "meta-setting" that intruded on everyone's favorite settings was probably the proverbial straw that broke the camels' backs.

Me, I love it. But I have no illusions about it having broad appeal.

That's the main issue I believe is really awful with D&D. They've fed the gamers so much European-flavored fantasy that it's too hard for almost anyone to comprehend that a fantasy setting can be different and SHOULD be different in feel, setting, and flavor.

This is the reason why Oriental Adventures, Arabian Adventures, Spelljammer, and Planescape had only niche fans. TSR and WotC have been feeding people too much European-styled fantasy which I think is just pure bull. When TSR tried to do away with that elitist and one-tracked mentality, it was already too late. Too many gamers like their knights and wizards to stay as plain ol' knights and wizards.

I don't think TSR was trying to force-feed the setting to anyone. They were trying to get people to try something new, even if it meant sticking it in your current setting like GH/FR/DL, because it was just really unhealthy to be ignorant about other possibilities with D&D.

WotC, of course, is now too scared to try what TSR did because they believe it's what caused them to fail. It's true, but to an extent. And I think WotC did attempt to steer gamers into a new direction when they brought in Eberron. I like Eberron because it's a campaign setting geared away from fantasy-stereotypes. It has a very strong "Final Fantasy" feel to it, like FFIV, FFVI and could evolve into FFVII. Just without the technology and keeping magic as the center of industry (and not having magic as an aid to technology, like Final Fantasy's done). Actually, after playing FFXII, I believe FFXII and Eberron have much more in common with each other.

 

[Celebrim]

This setting is pure awesome. Why didn't it do well?!

Uninspiring, cheesy, goofy artwork.

Much like the Dark Sun setting, what killed interest in the setting was that to the older players, it looked kiddified. Few of the older players bothered to look past the cover art.

I knew some DMs drew some inspiration from Spelljammer, but I don't know any that ran the campaign.

 

[Shemeska]

SJ had some good stuff and some sour stuff, and I'm not sure which comes up on tops. The setting as a whole doesn't do much for me though, and I wouldn't run an explicitely SJ game, though I might use some elements of it.

But a few observations:

Spelljammer stuff written by the late Nigel Findley = disturbingly awesome. *raises a glass to the man*

However a lot of SJ stuff struck me as silly, be it the space hamsters, british hippo men, etc. I'll happily take the Mercane, Neogi slavers, other cool stuff and leave the goofy material untouched.

 

[Celebrim]

They've fed the gamers so much European-flavored fantasy that it's too hard for almost anyone to comprehend that a fantasy setting can be different and SHOULD be different in feel, setting, and flavor.

This is the reason why Oriental Adventures, Arabian Adventures, Spelljammer, and Planescape had only niche fans. TSR and WotC have been feeding people too much European-styled fantasy which I think is just pure bull. When TSR tried to do away with that elitist and one-tracked mentality, it was already too late. Too many gamers like their knights and wizards to stay as plain ol' knights and wizards.

Or instead of there being something wrong with other gamers just becauset they don't like what you like as much as you do, it could be that the products were mishandled in one way or another. It also could be that the products aren't as great as you think they are, or even that other peoples tastes are perfectly legitimate. Oriental and Arabian adventurers are too niche. What we would call default D&D doesn't limit itself to the tropes of a few ethnic mythologies, but widely borrows from anything that it gets ahold of. So in that way, its a broader, more robust, more creative setting than any single ethnic themed setting could. You can do great things with Authurian or Viking settings to, but I think it would be a mistake to try to make those your full blown major campaign setting. As I said, Spelljammer was done in by its art. Planescape was actually fairly popular and very influential, but had various quirks that turned players and DMs off the idea of running fullblown campaigns. But mostly it was done in by the fact that by that point, many players had simply turned away from D&D and were looking elsewhere.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

And now Wizards is doing the same with Eberron.

Eberron is showing up in Forgotten Realms stuff?

 

[Voadam]

Some people did not like the crystal spheres with the greek and lankhmar cosmology/astrology paradigms.

Some people did not like changing D&D from medieval fantasy to fantasy space.

Some did not like the gnome tinkers and their giant space hamsters.

Some didn't like linking the settings.

Some thought the Rock of Bral, and hints of the beholder/illithid/neogi/ elven/ and humanoid empires were not enough to give it its own setting.

Some thought the actual helms were not evocative enough (just bolt this magical chair onto the floor of your ship and go).

It was niche weird D&D.

I loved most of it.

I thought the beholder/mind flayer/neogi stuff was great. I liked the elven ships and the gith pirates.

I loved the art.

The module where a giff (big hippo man) escapes orcs by hiding under a bed was a low moment.

The novel series switching authors and styles every book was overall poor with various good individual moments IMO.

The actual mechanics of spelljamming were eh.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Big fan of Spelljammer,

But, really, the designers used a little too much.... Cold Medicine with some of the things they came up with.

1. Talking Penguins that rode flying Pigs through Space.

2. Miniature Giant Space Hamsters (I think there were 10-15 Monsters in the Giant Space Hamster Line)

3. Hippos with English Accents & Gun Fetishes.

4. Tinker Gnomes as fae as the eye can see.

5. Dyslexic Orcs.

6. I have all the Box Sets, Monster Compendiums & Adventures in the Basement, so I'm sure I'm repressing some other stuff.


Now, if you'll excuse me I have to go work on the Awakened Chicken Monks of Hastur for my Game Tomorrow.

 

[JustinA]

Here's the thing: There are certain D&D settings that get their "hook" from totally smashing a time-honored convention of the game. (Spelljammer and Darksun are probably the most extreme examples.) When faced with a convention-smashing supplement, most people have one of two reactions: They're either inspired to the point of delirious love, or their brain shuts down completely from the shock.

That's what you're seeing here, and every other thread ever discussing Spelljammer in every forum, newsgroup, and mailing list until the end of time. The Inspired Gamers will insist Spelljammer is the greatest idea since funny-shaped dice, and the rest will insist it's the greatest crime in the history of roleplaying. There's almost never any inbetween.

So people who like Spelljammer are creative geniuses and people who dislike Spelljammer are narrow-minded?

Wow.

Just... wow.

Anyway, my thoughts on the subject:

1. The core concept of Spelljammer was great. I can see how sailing the phlogiston seas between the crystal spheres wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, but it's a perfectly valid fantasy concept (and one I find pretty cool). I was always fascinated with the potential of the setting, although I was routinely frustrated by the execution.

2. I had no problm with the Spelljamer setting saying, "And among these crystal spheres are Toril, Oerth, and Krynn." Heck, the whole point of the setting was that you could put just about anything you wanted to into a crystal sphere: You want Middle Earth? It's there. You want historical medieval England? Medieval earth can be in there. You want Ego the Planet? It can be in there.

But I didn't like it when SJ material showed up in FR, GH, or DL material. (And contrary to some claims, it showed up a lot during the timeframe hat SJ was being meaningfully supported by TSR.)

The difference is that, if I'm playing SJ, I'm intrinsically accepted the premise that the crystal spheres hold anything that I want them to hold. The idea of Toril, Oerth, and Krynn being in the crystal spheres is right in line with the premise of the setting. If I don't like it for some reason, I can always change it -- but the suggestion doesn't offend my sensibilities.

On the other hand, if I'm playing FR, GH, or DL I haven't accepted the premise that these worlds are located inside of crystal spheres and are routinely visited by spelljamming craft. In fact, I may have a long-running campaign where this is intrinsically NOT the case. So having the SJ references crop up in those products feels like I'm getting something crammed down my throat.

(Personally, I always considered the Toril, Oerth, and Krynn that could be found in SJ to be copies of the "true" Toril, Oerth, and Krynn. The "real" Toril and Oerth, for example, are pat of the Great Wheel -- always have been, always will be. Similarly I would consider an SJ-version of Middle Earth stuck in a crystal sphere to be nifty, but hardly the "true" Middle Earth.)

3. The goofiness really kills the setting for me. It's not that I expect my D&D campaigns to be completely serious affairs -- but I do like to have a setting which at least allows me to suspend my disbelief. And the problem is that, if I were to start an SJ campaign with the goofiness stripped out of it, I would first have to overcome the expectation of other people coming to the game that the goofiness was not going to be part of it.

This can be done, but it's not trivial. I have enough difficulty making new players understand that there are no halflings or gnomes in my campaign world (a change I made because I wanted to limit the number of humanoids running around). Major stylistic shifts are far more difficult.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Anyone thinking that Spelljammer didn't conform to Western myth and fantasy needs to spend some time researching the pre-Galileo beliefs about the cosmos. It's lifted almost entirely from real-world beliefs.

That said, it'd be a lot better off if the game worlds had been designed with crystal spheres and the like from the get-go, instead of having everything retro-fitted into them later. (Although, ironically, that's sort of thematically appropriate, given that the ancient astronomers bent themselves into pretzels to justify celestial movements that kept Earth at the center of the universe.)

I'd love to see a few pages of a campaign setting discuss the night sky, what the stars are, and so on. There's lots of possibilities. Creating a Unified Celestial Theory for D&D, though, was presumptive and unnecessary.

If it had only appeared in SJ-branded products like Greyspace, I don't think anyone reasonable would have ever objected. It didn't stay inside its own books, however. Just think of how people would flip if there was a Forgotten Realms module with outsiders speaking Planescape cant.