Spelljammer...just wow

[The_Warlock]

Oh. God. Bad. Idea... :\

It was hysterical. Not to be run as a campaign fixture, but a hoot as a one shot. The bad idea is when the DM says OK to any harebrained PC scheme to take control of the Beholder Shaped Space Station of Doom and use it for their own ends in a campaign. But if wild and wacky is where it's at...there's nothing quite as wacky...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

(Eberron creator) Keith Baker famously said - I daresay boasted - he never played a Final Fantasy game; I have a lot of respect for Keith's passion and creativity, but, frankly, this always struck me as a bit like a space opera writer who prided himself on never having watched Star Wars.

I don't know about that...

I'd be more concerned if he had claimed he never read any of the pulp sci/fant stories or novels that games like FF are based on. I mean, that genre goes back, what...70 years?

Besides, its not like Star Wars invented space opera, either. That genre is about 50+ years old itself.

 

[IanB]

FWIW, aside from the fact that both have airships and pulp sensibilities, I found Eberron *hugely* disappointing as a D&D take on Final Fantasy. Eberron is much more D&D taken to 11 and merged with some pulp, as opposed to the more unique worldbuilding of FFs 6 and on. You not only lose the tech and magic dialectic that drives so many of the FFs, you also lose the fantasy-from-a-nearly-blank slate quality that allowed Square to create wholly original settings.

(Eberron creator) Keith Baker famously said - I daresay boasted - he never played a Final Fantasy game; I have a lot of respect for Keith's passion and creativity, but, frankly, this always struck me as a bit like a space opera writer who prided himself on never having watched Star Wars.

My reaction is the opposite. I much prefer the pulp approach. Eberron airships aren't Final Fantasy airships; they're the zeppelin in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

Really it comes down to personal tastes. For the most part I can't stand the Final Fantasy games, so I can personally understand what might make someone pride themselves on not using that as inspiration! "More unique" is subjective.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I don't know about that...

I'd be more concerned if he had claimed he never read any of the pulp sci/fant stories or novels that games like FF are based on. I mean, that genre goes back, what...70 years?

Besides, its not like Star Wars invented space opera, either. That genre is about 50+ years old itself.

Actually, I had that exact thing in mind when I made my analogy.

A writer could be doing a space opera and boast he hadn't read Dune - which would be a mite odd, and would indicate he wasn't familiar with at least one of the literary giants of the field. But by claiming he hadn't seen Star Wars, he would be claiming he hadn't seen what defined the pop cultural expectations of the genre.

It's the same with FF. It's not the original and we can debate till blue in the face if it's the classic. But FFs 7 through 12 have each sold more than twice as many copies as WotC says tabletop RPGs have players (and, to excise a common bugaboo, roughly half again as many as the allegedly 'tabletop RPG-killing' World of Warcraft has subscribers).

And when you're talking about non-standard fantasy, especially fantasy with high- or common magic and pulp undertones, FF is by FAR the most prominent example. Nothing else is even close to on the popular radar.

My reaction is the opposite. I much prefer the pulp approach. Eberron airships aren't Final Fantasy airships; they're the zeppelin in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

Odd, then, that Final Fantasy airships (at least in 6, 7 and 9, and for the most part in 12) are *much* more like true zeppelins than Eberron's elementally-powered ones, which bear a closer resemblance to spelljammers.

I consider the Final Fantasy style a natural outgrowth of pulp stylings, whereas D&D and high fantasy in general take a wide, unpleasant detour through epic fantasy and lose most of the pulp flare. Eberron tries to re-infuse that, and does a solid job of it (I like the setting, just not as any kind of FF-equivalent), but is handicapped by the roots from which it is expected to grow.

Really it comes down to personal tastes. For the most part I can't stand the Final Fantasy games, so I can personally understand what might make someone pride themselves on not using that as inspiration! "More unique" is subjective.

Priding oneself on not using something as inspiration is fine. I could say "I reject the black and white of Star Wars in favor of the nuance of Dune" or "I reject the..." OK, I'm not sure what you'd reject from FF for a high magic pulp setting; the, uh, "the non-Tolkien races-ism of Final Fantasy in favor of the presence of Tolkien races." Rejecting something as inspiration because you've weighed it and decided to look elsewhere is VERY different from never familiarizing yourself with some of the most high-profile media in your genre - THE most high-profile media in the subgenre you intend to work with.

"More unique" is actually... nonsensical... and I regret saying it. More unusual, or more distinctive, would be more appropriate, and neither is wholly subjective. The worlds of FFs 6 through 12 are considerably more distinctive and unusual, compared to the broad swathe of fantasy media, than Eberron.

In any case, the poster I was responding to was intrigued by the idea of Eberron being Final Fantasy like, so I assume he looked favorably on the FFs.

 

[RichGreen]

You never took a look at the Spelljammer adventure Wildspace, did you?

That's the one with the moon-sized battle station shaped like a beholder that shoots giant planet destroying super death rays out of its eyes... It's the heroes' job to fly inside the thing and destroy it.

One of the best D&D adventures of all time, IMHO!


Richard

 

[Pbartender]

It was hysterical. Not to be run as a campaign fixture, but a hoot as a one shot. The bad idea is when the DM says OK to any harebrained PC scheme to take control of the Beholder Shaped Space Station of Doom and use it for their own ends in a campaign. But if wild and wacky is where it's at...there's nothing quite as wacky...

I think the best part was the magical "mecha" designed for beholders to drive into combat.

Priceless.

 

[IanB]

Odd, then, that Final Fantasy airships (at least in 6, 7 and 9, and for the most part in 12) are *much* more like true zeppelins than Eberron's elementally-powered ones, which bear a closer resemblance to spelljammers.

I don't mean in terms of looks; I mean in terms of narrative function. For the most part, FF airships are (and I realize there are exceptions and that this is an oversimplification) meant as ways to get around faster and avoid the (soul-crushingly repetetive and common - oops, editoralizing ) random encounters on the map; Eberron seems to have airships because airships are a cool place to fight set-piece battles against Nazis... er, I mean Emerald Claw soldiers.

Priding oneself on not using something as inspiration is fine. I could say "I reject the black and white of Star Wars in favor of the nuance of Dune" or "I reject the..." OK, I'm not sure what you'd reject from FF for a high magic pulp setting; the, uh, "the non-Tolkien races-ism of Final Fantasy in favor of the presence of Tolkien races." Rejecting something as inspiration because you've weighed it and decided to look elsewhere is VERY different from never familiarizing yourself with some of the most high-profile media in your genre - THE most high-profile media in the subgenre you intend to work with.

Without getting too off-topic, I can think of plenty of things to reject; a good example would be the entire plot of Final Fantasy X. A lot of people don't really like the wacky hair and giant swords, or the 10 minute long monster summoning cut scenes. That sort of "feel" isn't really pulp at all. I don't find FF very pulpy in general, to be honest.

Anyway this probably isn't really an interesting direction for the thread to go so I should probably stop before we *really* get off on a tangent.

 

[13garth13]

My biggest problems with Spelljammer...

....Number one was not physics and not goofy creatures, but rather the way that even simple, low-level adventures in space destroyed any sense of economic realism within the campaign.

For example, let's say you had a group of 4th level characters hunting down some space pirates, which they defeat after a long ship-to-ship battle. After putting the villains in irons, they loot the vessel and then claim the vessel itself, and then sell it to some Arcane.

Now I realize that it's my campaign, and I can adjust factors as I see fit, but does any of the above seem unreasonable so far? As far as I can tell, these are perfectly valid party options.

Here's the problem with a capital P....after they sell off the ship (oh hey, for argument's sake, let's make it a caravel) and the helm (and hey, let's make it only a minor helm), our 4th level party is suddenly up to their teeth in gold.

And let's face it, it get's rather tedious to have them relieved of their tens of thousands (to say nothing of over a hundred thousand for a major helm and a big ship like a Hammership) of gold by wandering space bandits and local tax officials for the sixth or seventh time in a row....which is pretty much what you're going to have to do, unless every single vessel is being run by an artifurnace, life-draining helm (I can't recall the name off hand), or some other unusable and relatively unsellable device. Which still leaves you with the massive amount of money the party can still gain just by selling off enemy ships and/or trading them for goods/services.

Yup, my number one peeve (and I other wise LOVED the wierdness and versatility of the setting) was definitely economical in nature.

My number two beef was how spelljamming ruined the chances of overland journeys and such...once the party had a helm and vessel, they could scoot all over the planet looooong before they would have otherwise had access to teleport spells and the like.

And speaking of travelling, isn't it odd that many of the creatures from the montrous compendia for Spelljammer weren't big enough to force a spelljammer to rev down from spelljamming speed and therefore couldn't actually be used......and even if the party did try to stop to fight them, should the adventurers have elected to bolt, there's just no way that the creatures could even remotely keep up with a spelljammer at full speed, rendering many off-planet encounters almost a moot point?

Anyhoo, those are my two coppers. As I said previously, I did enjoy the setting, I just had a few problems with the execution of some of the mechanical nuts and bolts.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Henry]

I found answers for myself in the two problems you faced...

....Number one was not physics and not goofy creatures, but rather the way that even simple, low-level adventures in space destroyed any sense of economic realism within the campaign.

I simply didn't take their gold, and rather let them use it, which they invariably did to improve their ships with modifications, or to pool and buy a bigger ship, or to invest in various money-making schemes. However, I didn't let them buy magic items, except at some rather inflated prices (remember, 2nd edition really disparaged the "magic item shop" as well as didn't have wealth by level guidelines) and they were always desirous of another money-making scheme, and I did let those pay off occasionally... only to fail later on.

And speaking of travelling, isn't it odd that many of the creatures from the montrous compendia for Spelljammer weren't big enough to force a spelljammer to rev down from spelljamming speed and therefore couldn't actually be used......and even if the party did try to stop to fight them, should the adventurers have elected to bolt, there's just no way that the creatures could even remotely keep up with a spelljammer at full speed, rendering many off-planet encounters almost a moot point?

Maybe the creatures weren't, but ships piloted by said creatures certainly were. And the occasional Radiant Dragon, or Space Worm, or (what were those living asteroids called?) was enough to wreak occasional havoc on their ship, causing them to have to spend more money on repairs, etc. Even the pirates of the real world found out the hard way that adventuring costs money - and only a few were smart and savvy enough to retire wealthy.

 

[Arnwyn]

....Number one was not physics and not goofy creatures, but rather the way that even simple, low-level adventures in space destroyed any sense of economic realism within the campaign.

Yup, my number one peeve (and I other wise LOVED the wierdness and versatility of the setting) was definitely economical in nature.

I do agree that this was a big problem.

But to be fair, (IIRC) the books in the boxed set did say that the absolute minimum recommended character level for spelljamming was 6th. [Can anyone confirm? I'm at work right now...]