D&D 5E spells in 5.0

[Stalker0]

Argh not this ridiculous chesnut again! Actually, they function in a way that is diametrically opposed to Healing Surges. HSes were the limited and controlled core of all healing in 4E. HD are free minor bonus healing.



5 mins = 1hr is a pretty bonkers change. It's kind of like if Wizards needed a week to regain their spells or something.

So yeah, the concept of rests beyond the daily, sure (though I think late 3.5E started that), but the implementation is strongly at-odds with 4E's "keep the game flowing" deal, instead becoming "Get the picnic basket and nap mats out!".



Not a 3E thing, I agree, but hardly limited to 4E - 2E's kits were VERY similar to 5E's sub-classes in many cases. So 2E and 4E influence.



Yep, but again we have stuff starkly at odds with 4E implementations, even ignoring scaling bonuses etc. etc.



Was in 3.5E, plus sorta repeating yourself.



What does it actually do?



Indeed. Far more 4E abilities left in the dust, though, many with no apparent design space to return.

Ruin, I think you are "ignoring the forest for the trees" as they say. Its true that 5e's implementation is pretty different than 4e...but I think you can clearly see 4e's design philosophy.

Hit Die...the 4e philosophy that "all classes should be able heal out of combat without magic".

1 hr rest...the 4e philosophy of "recharge mechanics beyond just the once per day long rest"

Monster design...4e's philosophies of "solo monsters require special rules to compete with a party" and "it takes a party of monsters to fight a party of players" by default.

 

[drjones]

Overall, 5E is a lot more like 4E than 3E, except for its presentation; 5E resurrected a lot of sacred flavour-hamburgers that 4E slaughtered, and 5E is definitely written and formatted in a way more reminiscent of 1E/2E/3E than of 4E's weird blocks-of-powers layout.

Totally, I see more 4e in it than any other version mechanically. And <3 fluff wise. I have been reading old modules and Dungeon etc. thinking about what to resurrect and run in 5e and I feel like the pre-4 adventures might not be a great match mechanically because they rarely focus on workday stuff like how large the dungeon is, how often the players can safely rest, how many monsters in a fight is fun/balanced etc. That said for matching the feel the <3 stuff seems best.

Really I feel 3 mostly in the character building.

 

[evilbob]

I'm not trying to detract from ANY edition. But it's very hard to pick out the 4.0 (sorry, I like it!) stuff amongst the 3.5 obviousness. It's funny; some of the things brought up in this thread were technically 4.0 inventions. But to me, some of them were just natural evolutions, just like 5.0 has a few as well. Things like flat math and no penalties / restrictions seem more like a natural and obvious evolution of rules that were unnecessary. The heart of 4.0 - 100% flat power levels, 100% of classes were "power" based, everything was geared toward a grid - are the things that are completely gone. I agree that the monster stat blocks are a huge improvement, tho.

Anyway, the main point was about the spells - and that is where 4.0 had NONE and 3.5 was just a huge bunch. They restored 3.5's huge bunch. Altho apparently they were mostly 1.0's huge bunch with a few more thrown in.

Also - those buff spells are gone, that's right! Mostly junk anyway, and again: seems like a natural progression away from rules that were unnecessary.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So if Pathfinder is "3.75," 5.0 is something like "3.99." Not that it is similar to 4.0 - it's not - but it's like the next logical step in 3.5's evolution. If Pathfinder is 3.5's sibling, 5.0 is 3.5's first cousin. 4.0 and 5.0... probably live in the same apartment building. It's pretty clear who they were trying to please with this edition.

Nowhere is this more apparent than in the spell list. For anyone who hasn't seen the PHB yet, if you're worried that your favorite spell wasn't included: don't be. It's like they took the entire 3.5 catalog, added a few 4.0 spells people liked, threw in a couple new ones, and that's the list. Spells alone are PART THREE of a three part book, for crying out loud. The only reduction I noticed was the repetitive spells - cure wounds, inflict wounds, summon monster blah, etc. All the crazy spells are still in there - magic jar, wish, clone - including all the insane ones and the ones that don't seem to make sense. Except they DID do a good job of a) making them make more sense (magic jar never made sense before and now at least you know how it works, even if it's still a terrible spell) and b) they reigned in the power level something amazing. Teleport (in Basic) is a perfect example. Yes, it's still amazing: but it's not constantly campaign-breaking anymore. Similarly wish is much more reasonable. Nearly everything that could get you something amazing has a pretty serious cost or side effect now. Which I think goes a long way toward making characters distinct but not laughably unbalanced anymore.

TL;DR: Reading the 5.0 PHB spell list was like reading the 3.5 PHB.

So, on the sheer quantity of spells, I feel like this is actually a consolidation from 4e. Consider what reading the Powers list for any class was like in 4e, now imagine if they put it all in one place at the back of the book instead of in each class -- I'd wager there'd be MORE in 4e. Everyone used "spells" of various stripes! No more with the 5-6 subtle-but-importantly-distinct variations on "make this guy stop moving."

On the spells themselves, it's good to see the classics return in a recognizable way, by having a significant effect. I don't care so much that they're easy to disrupt (concentration, multiple saves, etc.). They're perhaps a little less binary than I'd hope, but they're notable, and that's important. I don't want infinite variations on "damage + be inconvenienced for a while," I want significant effects. I'd be cool with them being MORE significant, but I get that there's a need for a more welcoming set of basic assumptions.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Anyway, the main point was about the spells - and that is where 4.0 had NONE and 3.5 was just a huge bunch. They restored 3.5's huge bunch. Altho apparently they were mostly 1.0's huge bunch with a few more thrown in.

Technically, all arcane powers in 4e were spells. Less technically, Cleric, Paladin, Druid and many other non-martial classes had powers that had been modeled by Vancian spells in prior editions.