Spells - Invisibility and Legacy

[Alzrius]

As for the fireball? It looked like it appeared out of thin air. But now you have a great idea of where that pesky caster is...

Not really, considering that fireball has a range of long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level). Pinpointing someone's location several hundred feet away by trying to track the path of the unexpected, pea-sized bead that suddenly rushed at you and exploded doesn't seem like something easily done.

...especially if the caster took his move action after casting the spell.

 

[Elephant]

Not really, considering that fireball has a range of long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level). Pinpointing someone's location several hundred feet away by trying to track the path of the unexpected, pea-sized bead that suddenly rushed at you and exploded doesn't seem like something easily done.

...especially if the caster took his move action after casting the spell.

Okay, yes, technically it could be hard to spot under those circumstances. But be honest: When was the last time you saw a D&D combat involve ranges of 500'?

The move action is a pickle though -- I'd expect that loophole to be exploited every action. Maybe there's a residual magical trace still visible for a few seconds? Enough to pinpoint the caster even if she moves, but not so much that it compromises the invisibility effect.

Then again, it's all academic; I'm not particularly bothered by this trope, so it's not like this is a house rule I need to refine

 

[BryonD]

It doesn't, any more than a thermos "knows" that it's keeping coffee hot rather than lemonade cold.

It makes you, your clothes, and your gear invisible. The blood of your target, OTOH, runs down the invisible blade, clearly pinpointing your location. As for the fireball? It looked like it appeared out of thin air. But now you have a great idea of where that pesky caster is...

You haven't answered the question, you have simply invented a different and incorrect alternative circumstance.

Your description substitutes "the spell stops being effective" in place of "the spell ends". When you attack, you don't become visible because the targets blood shows you or because somehow every possible observer gains a magic ability to pinpoint fireball origin points. You become visible because the spell ends. NOTHING is invisible anymore.

But even with that, your solution just shuffles the problem. What if you are in a necromancer's lair sneaking invisibly around. You need to know if a zombie is hiding in a vat of blood. So you poke your sword around in the vat. Why is this blood not giving you away?

A Thermos does not react to hot or cold. Invisible reacts to an attack.

 

[BryonD]

Okay, yes, technically it could be hard to spot under those circumstances. But be honest: When was the last time you saw a D&D combat involve ranges of 500'?

The move action is a pickle though -- I'd expect that loophole to be exploited every action. Maybe there's a residual magical trace still visible for a few seconds? Enough to pinpoint the caster even if she moves, but not so much that it compromises the invisibility effect.

Then again, it's all academic; I'm not particularly bothered by this trope, so it's not like this is a house rule I need to refine

What if my wizard casts a fireball and then on the next turn an orc walks into the room. Why does the orc know where I am?

If I cast fireball with 2 minutes of invisibility left, why does everyone I meet in the next two minutes see me?

If you agree that 500 feet doesn't make sense, but don't accept that anything ever happens at that range, what would you do if suddenly it did happen at that range? What if a 15th level wizard throws a fireball 1,000 feet?'

Is 450 feet far enough? 400? What is your maximum permitted combat range?

 

[Elephant]

What if my wizard casts a fireball and then on the next turn an orc walks into the room. Why does the orc know where I am?

Who says he does? Customize this idea to suit -- if you don't like a longer-term reveal, don't use it. It's not like you're going to offend me with the way you run your game!

If I cast fireball with 2 minutes of invisibility left, why does everyone I meet in the next two minutes see me?

Who says they do?

If you agree that 500 feet doesn't make sense, but don't accept that anything ever happens at that range, what would you do if suddenly it did happen at that range? What if a 15th level wizard throws a fireball 1,000 feet?'

Is 450 feet far enough? 400? What is your maximum permitted combat range?

Okay, Abraham. I'll spare the city for as few as ten righteous men

You haven't answered the question, you have simply invented a different and incorrect alternative circumstance.

Yeah...okay, know what? I was just tossing out an idea. I didn't ponder it for hours and cross-check it against every possible contingency. It was just a brainstorm. If you don't like it, don't use it. Like I said, it won't bother me. No need to keep beating me with "but...but...you didn't take x into account, or y."

Your description substitutes "the spell stops being effective" in place of "the spell ends".

So?

[strike]When you attack, you don't become visible because the targets blood shows you[/strike] or because somehow every possible observer gains a magic ability to pinpoint fireball origin points.

I never suggested giving observers magic abilities. Please don't put words in my mouth. It's quite rude.

You become visible because the spell ends. NOTHING is invisible anymore.

Based on the thread, that bothered you, so I tossed in an idea for you to play with. Don't like it? Don't use it.

But even with that, your solution just shuffles the problem. What if you are in a necromancer's lair sneaking invisibly around. You need to know if a zombie is hiding in a vat of blood. So you poke your sword around in the vat. Why is this blood not giving you away?

Obviously, it *would* give you away. The invisible man would need to know better than to sully his invisible sword with zombie vat blood...or ford a river...or drink a cup of coffee. It would be using commonsense rulings of "this would show" or "that wouldn't reasonably affect the invisibilty" instead of a hard-and-fast attack/no attack rule.

A Thermos does not react to hot or cold. Invisible reacts to an attack.

And you were looking for ideas to change that. Don't bitch me out for trying to play along.

Regardless, I'm not going to argue this anymore. Use my idea in some capacity, or don't -- I don't really care.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Guys, keep it friendly in here, please. Consider this forum my game table at my house and comport yourselves appropriately.

Also, pass the cheetos.

 

[BryonD]

Who says he does? Customize this idea to suit -- if you don't like a longer-term reveal, don't use it. It's not like you're going to offend me with the way you run your game!



Who says they do?

Just to clarify.... In both cases, the answer is "the rules", or "the SRD", take your pick.

Now, if your intent was to greatly buff the spell invisibility and allow the target to remain truly invisible then certainly the orc doesn't have to see you and people you meet soon after casting fireball don't see you. But the rules say they do.

And you were looking for ideas to change that. Don't bitch me out for trying to play along.

Regardless, I'm not going to argue this anymore. Use my idea in some capacity, or don't -- I don't really care.

I'm not. But I did assume that still working within the rules of the game was assumed. Sorry for not being more specific.