Spells. What needs adjusted?
- Thread starter mellored
- Start date
Hm. I don't have a problem with damage spells, in fact, given how many hit points monsters can have, I often find they probably could do more. The fact that damage synergizes with what the non-casters are typically doing is a big plus.
Hard control; things that leave enemies unable to do anything at all. These are problematic in every sense of the word. Hindering enemies actions and movements are exactly what I'd expect battlefield control to consist of in a game that wants melee combat to be the primary form of conflict resolution. Hypnotic Pattern making enemies stand around going "derrrh pretty lights" while you kill them one at a time seems a bit much. I prefer things like Web, Slow, or Sleet Storm.
I agree, summoning hordes is bad. A side effect of bounded accuracy is that more attacks are more useful than one strong attack in lots of situations. All summons should bring in a single, reasonable body that can suck up some hits, but never multiple bodies or spellcasting of it's own. I include Animate Objects here as well.
Out of combat spells. Things that grant a great deal of narrative power, especially on days where you're not adventuring (due to having depleted your Hit Dice on a previous day, or just downtime in general).
This gives casters a huge advantage on what they can do, and their ability to make money, gather information, and even stockpile resources without any real cost or risk can cause a lot of problems to a gamemaster who is not prepared for it. On the one hand, I like that these options exist, but on the other, they can be disruptive and make other players wonder why they don't have similar options.
Buff spells. I'm used to playing where a caster throws buffs on their fighters to make them more effective. But as a reaction to the 3.x era (I assume), buffs are conservative and often require concentration, directly competing with other, better spells casters can use. I would like to see this design space expanded upon; if the Wizard is using their godlike power to make the Fighter better, the disparity between classes can become far less of a factor. You just have to make sure they aren't buffing themselves, lol.
Hard control; things that leave enemies unable to do anything at all. These are problematic in every sense of the word. Hindering enemies actions and movements are exactly what I'd expect battlefield control to consist of in a game that wants melee combat to be the primary form of conflict resolution. Hypnotic Pattern making enemies stand around going "derrrh pretty lights" while you kill them one at a time seems a bit much. I prefer things like Web, Slow, or Sleet Storm.
I agree, summoning hordes is bad. A side effect of bounded accuracy is that more attacks are more useful than one strong attack in lots of situations. All summons should bring in a single, reasonable body that can suck up some hits, but never multiple bodies or spellcasting of it's own. I include Animate Objects here as well.
Out of combat spells. Things that grant a great deal of narrative power, especially on days where you're not adventuring (due to having depleted your Hit Dice on a previous day, or just downtime in general).
This gives casters a huge advantage on what they can do, and their ability to make money, gather information, and even stockpile resources without any real cost or risk can cause a lot of problems to a gamemaster who is not prepared for it. On the one hand, I like that these options exist, but on the other, they can be disruptive and make other players wonder why they don't have similar options.
Buff spells. I'm used to playing where a caster throws buffs on their fighters to make them more effective. But as a reaction to the 3.x era (I assume), buffs are conservative and often require concentration, directly competing with other, better spells casters can use. I would like to see this design space expanded upon; if the Wizard is using their godlike power to make the Fighter better, the disparity between classes can become far less of a factor. You just have to make sure they aren't buffing themselves, lol.
Zubatcarteira
Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
Yeet Shield into the stratosphere.
Spells that deal damage over time probably need to be limited to when a creature moves into them with their speed/action/reaction, like with opportunity attacks, or start their turn there. Knocking people in and out of Spirit Guardians or through Spike Growth does some crazy stuff.
Yeet the conjure spells and animate objects.
Add AC and HP to the force spells like Wall of Force and Forcecage, both should be concentration.
Yeet Simulacrum into the sun.
Yeet True Polymorph and Shapechange into a black hole.
More to do with the Saving Throw system, but them targetting six saves is too much when they just don't scale at all. A level 20 character can easily be disabled by even CR 1/2 casters with the right spells.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
Spells that deal damage over time probably need to be limited to when a creature moves into them with their speed/action/reaction, like with opportunity attacks, or start their turn there. Knocking people in and out of Spirit Guardians or through Spike Growth does some crazy stuff.
Yeet the conjure spells and animate objects.
Add AC and HP to the force spells like Wall of Force and Forcecage, both should be concentration.
Yeet Simulacrum into the sun.
Yeet True Polymorph and Shapechange into a black hole.
More to do with the Saving Throw system, but them targetting six saves is too much when they just don't scale at all. A level 20 character can easily be disabled by even CR 1/2 casters with the right spells.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
Threy need to bring back SR:Yes & SR:No spells.
Uni-the-Unicorn!
Hero
What does this mean? What are SR spells?
Benjamin Olson
Hero
I'm basically happy with the balance of 5e spells. My priorities for 5.5 spells (if I had any intention of buying a 5.5 product) would be to implement broader and more interesting uses of upcasting mechanics, and to tweak a few spells that, whether good or bad, don't really live up to their intended use (for example, while Animate Objects is a very powerful spell, I would like to see it incentivizing animating the random objects in the room you're in more, rather than almost always so overwhelmingly favoring animating a fistful of coins or whatever carried around for the purpose).
NaturalZero
Hero
This is the one thing, IMO, that seems completely borked about the system. It feels like an early, first-draft spitball idea for how saving throws could work before being tossed out for something that works better. Potentially having 4 out of your 6 saving throws never scale feels busted.
It impacted a lot of things & pressured the party casters towards reciprocity during big fights. Generally conjuration spells were SR:no but had lower boom than equivalent evocation spells that were almost always SR:yes. debuff spells varied but save or die/save or lose spells were often SR:yes while save or suck were often SR:no
UngeheuerLich
Legend
All spells need to be adjusted for default saving throw does not succeed.
All one save and suck spells need to have more saving chances added.
All one save and suck spells need to have more saving chances added.
Clint_L
Hero
It would be a long list, but any spells that virtually never get taken should be buffed or removed. Conversely, any spell that seems mandatory probably needs a nerf.
There are too many damage spells that are all but indistinguishable, so that whichever one does slightly more damage gets taken most of the time and the rest just take up space.
Healing word should cost an action.
I agree that conjure spells tend to be a PITA and should be more restricted.
Find Familiar is too powerful; there should be significant consequences when a familiar dies (significant time to re-summon, like a week).
Banishment needed a nerf, but a saving throw every round makes it too weak for its level. Balance is needed.
Revivify should take ten minutes.
There are too many damage spells that are all but indistinguishable, so that whichever one does slightly more damage gets taken most of the time and the rest just take up space.
Healing word should cost an action.
I agree that conjure spells tend to be a PITA and should be more restricted.
Find Familiar is too powerful; there should be significant consequences when a familiar dies (significant time to re-summon, like a week).
Banishment needed a nerf, but a saving throw every round makes it too weak for its level. Balance is needed.
Revivify should take ten minutes.
Olrox17
Hero
Revert Leomund’s tiny hut to its previous edition self: an handy way to shelter yourself from the elements, NOT an unbreakable fortress.
All (or the most powerful) of control spells should have an hp threshold, kinda like sleep or the power words. If a target’s hp are above the spell’s threshold, they get a lessened control effect.
Spirit guardians needs to be looked at, it pumps out a lot of damage and a nice slowing effect to boot.
Shield should probably apply to a single attack, or last a single turn, at best.
Also agreeing on a lot of the suggestions from posters above.
All (or the most powerful) of control spells should have an hp threshold, kinda like sleep or the power words. If a target’s hp are above the spell’s threshold, they get a lessened control effect.
Spirit guardians needs to be looked at, it pumps out a lot of damage and a nice slowing effect to boot.
Shield should probably apply to a single attack, or last a single turn, at best.
Also agreeing on a lot of the suggestions from posters above.
Would you suggest temp hp for low CR creatures instead of more creatures? Is there a sweet spot that mirrors the extra attacks of fighters?
Phantom Steed is one for me. In previous editions it scaled with the ability to ignore difficult terrain and eventually fly. I think they rolled that into a generic high speed but it might be better to keep a lower base speed and have the spell scale in higher slots. Also the spell doesn't last long enough for overland travel. I can see why rituals need to be controlled but for a spell slot, I struggle to see what use it is. I have limited spells and I have only used the spell once since 5e started.
Tales and Chronicles
Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Druids have too many spells with concentration; casting a concentration spell then wading in combat in beast form only works for Moon Druid. If I want to play a spellcasting druid, I have to juggle concentration on most of my spells for pretty mediocre effects.
Spells with a casting time over 1 action should be Rituals, and Rituals should only be usable as Rituals that consume something, no spending of spell slots on them.
Damage spells should deal more: find a good compromise between fireball and the other damage spell.
The Wish spell is an artifact, not a spell every wizard should have on their spell list.
Some spells could be merged (cure/inflict wound, heal/harm) or one spell could be the upcasted version of another (lighting bolt -> chain lightning, Sleet storm -> Ice storm)
Spells with a casting time over 1 action should be Rituals, and Rituals should only be usable as Rituals that consume something, no spending of spell slots on them.
Damage spells should deal more: find a good compromise between fireball and the other damage spell.
The Wish spell is an artifact, not a spell every wizard should have on their spell list.
Some spells could be merged (cure/inflict wound, heal/harm) or one spell could be the upcasted version of another (lighting bolt -> chain lightning, Sleet storm -> Ice storm)
Cap'n Kobold
Hero
If the summon spells from Tasha's are used instead, they get a scaling amount of HP so no temp HP required.
Those spells also do mirror the extra attacks of fighters pretty well.
Corinnguard
Adventurer
Spells - Archives of Nethys: Starfinder RPG Database This is the Flight spell from the Starfinder RPG. When cast as a 1st level spell, it acts like the spell Feather Fall. At 2nd level, it acts like Levitate. At 3rd level, it acts like Fly.
Clint_L
Hero
I agree with most of these points except about damage. I think spell damage is mostly balanced okay in the sense that it is generally weak against single targets but certain spells are strong against multiple foes. I think it is important that every class has some weaknesses, and spell casters have a lot of flexibility. But their single target DPS should be significantly lower than classes like fighter or rogue who don't have all those options. Otherwise it just becomes the wizard show.
Tales and Chronicles
Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
yes, thanks!
That's exactly what I mean.
Entangle -> Spike Growth -> grasping vine could be made in the same way.
Corinnguard
Adventurer
Spells like Flight in the Starfinder RPG are called Variable spells in that they produce different spell-like effects whenever you upcast them.
