Spells which were not properly nerved...

[JiffyPopTart]

A fine game balance for baleful polymorph would be to make it a ritual (or 10 minute casting time spell in non-4e games) performed on a helpless individual. Since you have already "beaten" the living thing in question to keep it helpless for 10 mintues, then have fun turning the nemesis that has taunted you all these years into a toad and keeping him alive.

That way you can have your trope and balance it too.

DS

 

[EroGaki]

A fine game balance for baleful polymorph would be to make it a ritual (or 10 minute casting time spell in non-4e games) performed on a helpless individual. Since you have already "beaten" the living thing in question to keep it helpless for 10 mintues, then have fun turning the nemesis that has taunted you all these years into a toad and keeping him alive.

That way you can have your trope and balance it too.

DS

That's not balance. That's pointless.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

That's not balance. That's pointless.

Kill a BBEG, he just gets resurrected and comes for revenge and you get 5 style points.

Turn a BBEG into a frog and keep him in a jar with you he can't be resurrected, and you get 40 style points (75 style points if the GM does a plot where the BBEG henchmen liberate said frog and he comes for revenge).

Polymorph doesn't have to be a combat applicable spell to be useful.

DS

 

[kinem]

A fine game balance for baleful polymorph would be to make it a ritual (or 10 minute casting time spell in non-4e games) performed on a helpless individual. Since you have already "beaten" the living thing in question to keep it helpless for 10 mintues, then have fun turning the nemesis that has taunted you all these years into a toad and keeping him alive.

So what you are saying is that balance = bad? That we can't have it without nerfing spells to the point of ridiculousness? Very well, then let's have no more talk of balance here!

Too bad, here I had thought Pathfinder had found reasonable ways to make balance sort of work without ruining the game ...

The only thing left to talk about, now, is how to put all of the good old school stuff back into the game, without worrying about that fun-destroying balance crap

First up: How can we make the 10' pole a must-have item again? Maybe you should have to describe what you do in-character instead of rolling search checks I'm serious - that can rock.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

So what you are saying is that balance = bad? That we can't have it without nerfing spells to the point of ridiculousness? Very well, then let's have no more talk of balance here!

Too bad, here I had thought Pathfinder had found reasonable ways to make balance sort of work without ruining the game ...

The only thing left to talk about, now, is how to put all of the good old school stuff back into the game, without worrying about that fun-destroying balance crap

First up: How can we make the 10' pole a must-have item again? Maybe you should have to describe what you do in-character instead of rolling search checks I'm serious - that can rock.

The reason the term "save-or-die" was invented is because there are a WHOLE lot of spells that give the opponent one chance to save or they are effectively killed. It doesn't matter if you turn them to stone, into a frog, disintegrate them, teleport them into a sun, freeze their body so your minotaur fighter can coup-de-grace their head off, or simply delete the from the universe, the end result in game terms is someone failed one die roll and then were taken out of the fight permanantly.

To some folks (myself included) any sort of save-or-die mechanic isn't good game design.

You can move spells around in what level they are gained, but in the end, if you don't address the fundamental save-or-die mechanic, you are just delaying what (to some) is a part of the game that is not enjoyable.

That being said, 4e has swing the power ability of a LOT of spells too far in the other direction (ala Baleful Polymorph having a 55%+ chance of ending each round) making them not do what they originally did (turning someone into a toad permanently).

The BALANCE I would propose if I were making a fixed version of D&D would be to have Baleful Polymorph function as it does in 4e is used DURING combat and function as it did in 1-3e if used out of combat.

Similarly I would have BLINDNESS, DEAFNESS, PETRIFICATION, and any number of similar spells work in much the same way. Short term used in combat and permanent if used out of combat.

Finally, only fools purchase 10' poles. Everyone knows what you should do is purchase a 10' ladder (which costs less), disassemble it, and have 2 10' poles and 5 wooden stakes.

DS

 

[kinem]

To some folks (myself included) any sort of save-or-die mechanic isn't good game design.

In the real world, fighting means a chance of being shot dead. Thus, it takes guts and you avoid it unless there is a good reason.

D&D characters are supposed to have guts which they demonstrate by heroically fighting the good fight, or brains which they demonstate by finding another way. Or both, which they demonstate by finding smart ways to fight.

If there is no chance they will be shot dead, even in the big final battles, they don't need guts or brains to fight and are no true heroes.

I'm not saying every battle has to have save-or-dies, but it is an important feature of the game, not a bug, when used on occasion. The key is you have to know in advance that it's a possibility, and either accept that risk or run away. That's role playing.

And most battles don't feature enemy wizards; fighter-types like ogres are far more common foes.

 

[Voadam]

In the real world, fighting means a chance of being shot dead. Thus, it takes guts and you avoid it unless there is a good reason.

D&D characters are supposed to have guts which they demonstrate by heroically fighting the good fight, or brains which they demonstate by finding another way. Or both, which they demonstate by finding smart ways to fight.

If there is no chance they will be shot dead, even in the big final battles, they don't need guts or brains to fight and are no true heroes.

I'm not saying every battle has to have save-or-dies, but it is an important feature of the game, not a bug, when used on occasion. The key is you have to know in advance that it's a possibility, and either accept that risk or run away. That's role playing.

And most battles don't feature enemy wizards; fighter-types like ogres are far more common foes.

That's just an argument for save or die monster/NPC powers to be used against PCs.

Its not an argument that it is good to give PCs save or die attack spells to use against BBEGs.

PC foes don't need to be true heroes.

 

[pawsplay]

The BALANCE I would propose if I were making a fixed version of D&D would be to have Baleful Polymorph function as it does in 4e is used DURING combat and function as it did in 1-3e if used out of combat.

If that is what is required for balance, then so much the worse for balance. I cannot digest that degree of illogic.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

In the real world...

That is the Godwin's Law equivalent of RPG discussions. Instant FAIL.

But for the record, I agree 100% with this:

I'm not saying every battle has to have save-or-dies, but it is an important feature of the game, not a bug.

 

[Scott DeWar]

I noticed that the beginning of this thread started with silence and I am not sure if that ever got resolved, and further more I am unsure if whaat I am about to propose was ever mentioned, but:

Feat- sudden silence allows any one spell memorized by the wizard to be cast (at original level) on the spot silent. Wheather the wizard is being sneaky (in the case of my wizard in Wirtlestaff's wizard thread) or as an emergerncy departure( expiditious retreat was mentioned, but further up the line is dimension door and teleport) cast with the feat's effect: poof, one escaped wizard.