spells you think are the wrong level

[Particle_Man]

Given that phantasmal killer requires the victim to fail two different saves (so one is likely to be the "good" save) I'd say it is ok at 4th.

I think a lot of the evocation damage spells are underpowered in 3rd ed, with the huge numbers of hp that monsters have now.

 

[hagor]

Spider Climb has been my favorite first level spell since I started playing back in the early 90's.

They moved it to second level in 3.5.

I am not happy about that in the slightest.

QFT

 

[QuaziquestGM]

Tht magic system is balanced by the fact that the mage gets ONLY FOUR hit points AND LIMITED SLOTS. You can swing a weapon until the GM gets fed up and makes you roll endurance checks, but a wizard has to be both smart and lucky to make it past 5th level.

(man, I'm contentious tonight....)

 

[Soel]

Minor Creation - should be lower
Illusory Wall - lower
Teleport - higher

 

[Victim]

Heal is WAY too nice for its level. You jump from 4d8+20 (max 52) to 10/cl (max 150) in two spell levels?

No. You go from 4d8+7 (avg: 25. Max is worthless!) to 110 HP. The way most of the cure spells scale, it takes forever for a caster to max them out; that 4th level spell doesn't max out until level 20 - Heal actually maxes out faster! So most of that potential healing is illusory.

The issue there is that the upper two cure spells aren't very good, more than Heal's overpoweredness. And that the ways spells scale up is often stupid, such as the damaging spells whose only benefit for being higher level is a higher caster level cap. Polar Ray, Cone of Cold, etc. Or spells that quickly become useless. Many of the Spell Compendium spells seem to have included useful secondary properties with their damage, or seem to consider progression more carefully.

 

[taliesin15]

You mean make it [Sleep] a level 2 spell with a slightly higher cap that gives a smaller penalty for being 'groggy' on a successful save? I can see that.

sure, that's one way to deal with spells people feel are overpowered. I think more what I was aiming at was the possibility of keeping some of these spells at lower lvls, just making them weaker until you reach higher lvls. Thus, a 1st LVL mage has a much higher chance of making affected parties groggy than all the way asleep--just seems to me an intuitive way to tackle the issue, and might add a bit of "realism" to the game.

Since I came up with this idea, its had me thinking of how all spellcasting could be redone. Perhaps Sorcerors might be able to add a few nerfed spells. Give them a bit wider palette, but not all that much more powerful. A half-powered Sleep spell sure isn't an unlimited Rod of Disintegration.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think a lot of the evocation damage spells are underpowered in 3rd ed, with the huge numbers of hp that monsters have now.

I'd definitely agree here.

 

[Gold Roger]

I think a lot of the evocation damage spells are underpowered in 3rd ed, with the huge numbers of hp that monsters have now.

Well, then PC classes would need a considerable HP bump as well. You can kill many mages with one or two evocations of spell levels lower than their own highest.

 

[Twin Rose]

I fully integrated "relics & rituals" into my game. If I don't like the way a certain spell plays, I make it into a "True ritual". It's not official, but it works in my game.

 

[Huw]

I'm going to completely refute this thread by claiming that all spells are at their right level. Whether the details of the individual spells are balanced or not is another matter - I'd rather the spell be fixed for it's level than changed level.

The reason I think this is that spells of a certain level are expected to allow the caster to do certain things. 3rd level spells let you do damage to a group of creatures (lightning bolt, fireball, etc.) or let the caster or one person travel anywhere (fly, water breathing). So if you have an adventure for levels 5-7, expect the party to be able to do these things. 5th level spells let you save the life of a party member (raise dead, break enchantment) or transport the whole party (overland flight, airy water, plane shift).

My views on some of the spells discussed:

Ray of Enfeeblement: Stays good right into the high levels, and really hurts anybody using Power Attack. But it doesn't stack with itself.

Sleep: In earlier editions, when magic users had 1 or 2 spells at first level, a spell which would let you "win" a single encounter was quite appropriate. In 3e, the balance is about right. Raising the casting time was a mistake IMHO.

Invisibility: In a world where invisibility is expected, this shouldn't be a problem. Guards will immediately expect invisibility if they hear something they can't see. Glitterdust is a pretty common spell IMC.

Polar Ray: This spell is ridiculously powerful. You can attack a creature in combat without hitting your allies - and you probably will hit, no worries about evasion and high saves. At fifteenth level, you're doing an average of 52 damage, so causing a massive damage save and doing respectable damage even to something with Cold Resistance 30.

Don't get my started about clerics with the Cold domain, Divine Metamagic, Split Ray and Domain Spontaneity with this spell