Spend XP, get Feats?

[Crothian]

As funny as this sounds, maybe a feat needs to be spent to buy feats. It could be used as a balancing issue by requireing certain prerequites. Or we could divide the feats into catagories. Each catagory would rewuire a different feat to get. You can also place different prices on the catagories. For instance skill focis feats should not be as expensive as combat feats.

 

[jmucchiello]

As funny as this sounds, maybe a feat needs to be spent to buy feats. It could be used as a balancing issue by requireing certain prerequites. Or we could divide the feats into catagories. Each catagory would rewuire a different feat to get. You can also place different prices on the catagories. For instance skill focis feats should not be as expensive as combat feats.

Read my first post again.

I think that you can cover this problem by just boosting the XP cost per feat a little bit; 350xp x level, maybe. That should help balance out the quicker advancement the feat-buying folks will get.

Actually in my system some feats cost 2,000 xp or more. I base the cost on the minimum level where you can take them.

For example, in my system, the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat has a minimum training level of 10th. So while a fighter could take the feat at 9th level as one of his normal feats, he could not spend XP on it until 10th. I'm not sure but I think it also costs 2,500 XP. That many XP is 1/4 of a level for a 10th level character. If that character buys 4 feats, he'll be one level lower than the rest of the party. That's lower BAB, lower saves, lower hit points. I want to make sure that the system I release doesn't cause too much power inflation. (And we haven't even factored in the gp cost to gain the feat.)

In any case, now that I'm sure people are interested, I'll have to get to work on finishing that system.

Joe

 

[The Sigil]

It's not a bad concept, but I'd limit it to only one feat per level. This way you don't have one character spend 3000xp over X sessions to get 10 feats (him being first level) and only be a couple levels behind.

Built-in - look back at my original post... "300 XP times the character's current level, with a maximum of one extra "XP-purchased" Feat per level." I at least picked up that one before players abused it.

As funny as this sounds, maybe a feat needs to be spent to buy feats. It could be used as a balancing issue by requireing certain prerequites. Or we could divide the feats into catagories. Each catagory would rewuire a different feat to get. You can also place different prices on the catagories. For instance skill focis feats should not be as expensive as combat feats.

Let me see if I understand this correctly... you are proposing the introduction of a new Feat... the "Will-Spend-XP-For-Feats" Feat. Or perhaps a set of Feats, the "Will-Spend-XP-For-Category-X-Feats" where you divide different feats into categories, with each category's name replacing "X" above. That's not a bad idea, either. Frex, the Archery Feats category might include Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. The "Classic Thief" category might include Skill Focus (any rogue class skill), Alertness, and Improved Initiative Feats (or what have you). Is this correct?

Originally posted by Hong:
If it's a bad idea to let a 17th level wizard burn 5000 XP on a feat, it would probably be a worse idea to let any random d00d do it.

Although, to be honest, I'm not yet convinced that letting wish grant feats subject to big restrictions is that bad an idea....

One of the reasons I see it as a bad idea to let a 17th level wizard burn 5000 XP (wish spell) is the fixed cost. The cost of a Feat as in proportion to character level should remain fairly constant. Frex, it's much easier for a 20th level to consider burning 5000 XP than a 10th level character. Yet the benefits of the Feat are the same to both, so we need to find a way to "hurt" the 20th-level character as much as the 10th. That's why I tied it to level. I haven't seen the thread, but perhaps you could take a moment to give a summary of why it was deemed bad.

It sounds like it would break the CR/EL system. Such a character would be more powerful than their level represents, therefore the XP they gain for an encounter would not represent the challenge of that encounter. So, while they expend XP to get the feat, from that point on they would be getting more XP per encounter than they should, which would make some of that XP cost a moot point. It would also be more difficult to gauge what types of encounters you can throw at the party since it's harder to tell just how powerful the characters are. You could probably adjust to account for this somehow -- maybe by determining how many feats are worth an "effective level" for CR calculation. Just a thought.

Since 300 XP times character level ~ 1/3 the XP for that level, the base assumption is that 1 character level = 3 Feats (I rounded 333.3 to 300). Is that a good assumption? Well, let's take some "measurable" Feats... assume the 3 Feats I grab are Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude. That means that I get (in essence) a +2 bonus to all saves. No skill points, no BAB improvement, no special abilities. That's a little less powerful than multiclassing into a level of monk (+2 to all saves, unarmed attack damage increases, Wis bonus to AC). So it "feels" about right to me. I just "fudge" the effective party level such that 1 "XP-purchased Feat" equals 1/3 of a level. Your point is well-taken though, I need to make sure to include that "fudge factor" (which I hadn't done).

Although, it makes me wonder... the system doesn't contain a similar fudge factor for the 12th-level wizard who spends all the XP that would have gone towards 13th and 14th levels crafting staffs. He has a ton of staffs, yet is more powerful than your "standard" 12th-level wizard.

That makes me think that regardless of whether I use this or not, I should use "total XP gained" to determine a party's effective level and completely ignore the character's actual level. Hm....

You'd also have to add these feats to all your intellegent creatures ion order to avoid the PCs ruling the universe so to speak.

I think if I based party level on Total XP gained, that would do the trick. And yes, the option ought to be available to intelligent monsters/NPCs too... at a corresponding CR boost (+1/3 per extra Feat) of course.

The more I look at it, the more I realize that Total XP Gained should be used to determine party level, not actual "character level..." though XP values for ECL's ought to be "lumped in" as though they were XP. An interesting thought...

--The Sigil

 

[Marshall]

What about giving the pseudo-feats at a regular interval, and then charging XP everytime theyre used?

 

[Crothian]

Let me see if I understand this correctly... you are proposing the introduction of a new Feat... the "Will-Spend-XP-For-Feats" Feat. Or perhaps a set of Feats, the "Will-Spend-XP-For-Category-X-Feats" where you divide different feats into categories, with each category's name replacing "X" above. That's not a bad idea, either. Frex, the Archery Feats category might include Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. The "Classic Thief" category might include Skill Focus (any rogue class skill), Alertness, and Improved Initiative Feats (or what have you). Is this correct?

Yes. The idea is so that you can't just get any feat with XP. Also, all feats are not created equal so you can have a bunch of weak feats in one catogory and havethem cost less.

 

[HellHound]

I can see making a system that allows you to "buy" feats, but the frequency of this would have to be controlled (once per level MAX) and additionally, the cost would have to increase in time - much like the levelling-up system.

First feat could cost 500 xp

Second would cost 1,000 xp

Third would cost 1,500 xp

effectively, follow the same formula as the level advancement scheme, making it harder and harder to buy additional feats.

(My first scheme I was going to post here I think would actually be more balanced, which would have feats cost the same thing as levels... you get one free at level 1, then you pay 1,000 XP per number of feats received in theis manner per additional feat. So your first feat "purchased" with XP would set you back 1,000 XP, your second 2,000 XP, your third 3,000 XP and so on. Even then I thinkt he price is getting too low at higher levels...)

 

[Limper]

I had a think on this.... I would allow the purchase of feats with experience under the following stipulations

1) Only one per level may so be purchased.

2) The cost is the same as the experience needed fo the next level thus 1000 at lvl 1, 2000 at lvl 2, etc.

3) ALL NPCs (critters as well) would get 3/4 of their levels in bonus feats


And still I read this and think its not enough.... so I'll think some more.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm still thinking about the 4CTF idea. A level of hero gets you a commoner with no skill points, but enough hero points to trade in for 4 feats.

What is the effect of getting a level? Well, besides the fact that your DM will add +1 to CR of all your encounters, you need more experience to go up a level:

At level 1 you need 1000 xp to get to second level; if you also have a level of hero, you need 2000 xp. In fact, every level you need 1000 more xp to advance a level than if you hadn't taken that level of hero.

Over 20 levels, that level of hero will cost you 20 000 xp. Since you get 4 feats for that 20 000 xp, each will end up costing you 5 000 xp. Same xp cost as a wish. Interesting!

Of course, the character doesn't pay this xp up front- it's broken down to 1000 xp a level for all 4 feats, or 250 xp per level per feat.

Maybe a character could buy a feat for 250 xp. But only for that level. If he wanted the feat again, he would have to buy it again.

(Ponders...)

Not every character will get to enjoy his feat for 20 levels after buying it. Depending on how deadly the campaign is, feats should be cheaper. For example, if a character is going to survive an average of only 4 more levels, 1000 xp is a fairer price than 5000, since the character will survive only a fifth as many levels.

And if 1000 xp is undercosting it, the next feat can cost 2000 xp, then 3000 xp, then 4000 xp...

(Ponders...)

If a fourth level character levels up in hero, he gets 4 feats for 4000 xp. That's 1000 xp per feat, and seems fair.

If an 8th level character levels up in hero, he or she still only gets 4 feats, but it cost twice as much. And so on, for higher levels. Should a 16th level character be able to buy their first extra feat for only 1000 xp?

So perhaps the initial cost of the feat should be 1000 xp per 4 levels, or the 1000 xp + the cost of the previous feat, whichever is higher.

A wish-level character (17+) will pay at least 4000 xp for the first bonus feat. But the price will go up from there.

 

[kenjib]

The more I read, the more it makes sense to me just to have the character take a level of Hero if they want a lot of extra feats. I think that blends with the core rules much, much, better than spending XP to buy feats directly.

 

[Crothian]

The more I read, the more it makes sense to me just to have the character take a level of Hero if they want a lot of extra feats. I think that blends with the core rules much, much, better than spending XP to buy feats directly.

What's a level of Hero? I guess it's from the supers book people are referring to. So, how does this solve the problem?