Spiked Chain + Great Cleave = DM's Nightmare

[eamon]

(sorry, double post)

 

[UltimaGabe]

You say I shouldn't "penalize" the fighter PC for something she is particularly good at. But what if she's too good at it? What if, in comparison to the other PC's in the group, she's so good at it – effortlessly and endlessly so – that it soon becomes rote for her, and thus becomes boring for the DM and the group? Well, then, as DM, I have to either reduce the number of encounters involving bands of humanoids (if not do away with them altogether), or I have to increase the hit dice of each of the humanoids in those bands.

My point is that you shouldn't be surprised if one of the players constantly shines when you throw that character into encounters where all of his strengths are given a chance to shine. If you had a Cleric of Pelor in the group, and you were constantly fighting huge hordes of 1-HD undead with Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance, the Cleric would easily account for the destruction of the vast majority of them. If you design all of your adventures around sneaking into hideouts, bluffing guards, and attacking people when their guard is down, the rogue is going to shine every time. If every dungeon is a magically-created fortress with all sorts of magical traps that require spells and Knowledge (Arcana) checks to pass, the Wizard/Sorcerer is going to shine.

That's your problem. You're constantly putting the PCs into the same type of encounter, a type of encounter when a spiked-chain-wielding-great-cleaving Fighter will shine because all of the enemies run in with no tactics and go down with a single hit, and then getting upset when one of the players uses a Spiked Chain with Great Cleave and mows down the non-tactical enemies in one hit each. It's like making an Epic-level adventures where the main challenge is getting over a chasm, and then getting upset when one of the players just flies over the pit. Players have certain abilities that shine in certain situations. You've chosen a situation where this one player is naturally going to shine, and then you're getting upset about it.

Change up the adventures. Add in some tactics to the enemies. Throw in spellcasters and ranged fighters. If the Spiked Chain wielder is still dominating every battle, then you should talk to the player about it. In the meantime, don't be surprised when your fifth horde of 1-HD undead gets destroyed by the Cleric of Pelor.

 

[Nail]

My point is that you shouldn't be surprised if one of the players constantly shines when you throw that character into encounters where all of his strengths are given a chance to shine. If you had a Cleric of Pelor in the group, and you were constantly fighting huge hordes of 1-HD undead with Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance, the Cleric would easily account for the destruction of the vast majority of them. If you design all of your adventures around sneaking into hideouts, bluffing guards, and attacking people when their guard is down, the rogue is going to shine every time. If every dungeon is a magically-created fortress with all sorts of magical traps that require spells and Knowledge (Arcana) checks to pass, the Wizard/Sorcerer is going to shine.

That's your problem.

QFT.

Well written, UltimaGabe.

Azlan, if I were playing in your game, and knew what kinds of combats you enjoyed throwing at the players, I would either build a half-orc spiked chain Ftr/Bbn, or a halfling sorcerer evocation specialist (or even Warmage or Battle Sorcerer). Your DMing style - not to put too fine a point in this - is too easy to read.

The solution is simple, and has been stated time and again in this thread: Move up the CR of your mooks. Believe me, the rest of the PCs won't be any worse off than the spiked chain Ftr!

 

[werk]

The solution is simple, and has been stated time and again in this thread: Move up the CR of your mooks. Believe me, the rest of the PCs won't be any worse off than the spiked chain Ftr!

Right, don't build your game to neuter the chain-weilder, build it to allow the other classes a chance to shine!

Don't focus on stopping behavior, focus on enabling alternate behavior. How often does your cleric turn or use know:religion? When was the last time everyone thanked the rogue for saving their butts? How often do you fast-talk your way out of trouble or were run out of town on a rail?

If your PCs all want to be riot police, that's fine and good, but I bet a few are just following along and don't realize they could be more.

 

[Meeki]

You can make them into swarms, or you can buff them, or you can have them start using layered tactics.

SWARMS of humanoids! I LOVE IT! Make them into a swarm!

Hah..

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Hrm...I do like the idea of adding in class-leveled officers, that have their name floating over their head (as opposed to "Trooper" or "Sergeant").

Also, cavalry. Worgs will NOT go down in a single hit with the player's listed damage. Use them sparingly until you figure out roughly what the PCs can deal with.

Brad

 

[KerlanRayne]

[IMaGel]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2130/coveredrj4.th.gif[/IMaGel] ____________________________________
Originally posted by mvincent
Yup. If you allies between you and the cleaver, you can often move about with impunity. So if a mook is planning to move towards the cleaver, her should either:
a) have no allies already there (so they'll be no one to cleave unto), or
b) move up behind his ally (using him for cover until the very last square).
____________________________________

The Cascade and other frms of AoO denial are a very good tactic to deal with Spiked Cheese. Do note, an ally does not provide cover while moving through his sqaure. Cutting accros diagnlally is fine, but moving through the allies space to get to the target does not work.

Dude, how did you do that? It looks like "IMaGel" is being used to provide a thumbnail for your image, but I've never seen that tag before. I keep getting an error when I try to view the BBcode list on here so I can't check to see if it's on there. I've never seen text wrap around an image like that on here before. Are there any other little known tags?

KerlanRayne

PS - I recall there being a rule somewhere for Mobs (which was mentioned earlier). They are like swarms, but for bigger creatures. I can't remember which book it's in though.

 

[Spatula]

As I am sure you will be made aware, the Spiked Chain has been discussed to death on these forums because of how well it works with AoO. Some Dm's like myself dislike the Great Cleave synergy.

Considering the low base damage / poor crit stats of the chain (especially for an exotic 2H weapon), the chances of getting a kill-shot on every hit is pretty low. I don't see a great deal of synergy as a result; throwing one extra HD onto the foes in the OP's case completely negates the Great Cleave.

I would house-rule that you can't cleave off an AoO. Aside from that, taking out low-hp mooks is what the Cleave and Great Cleave feats are for. Keep throwing the bag of goons at the party, just don't make it the only threat.

Also, are your opponents all mindless? If the fighter is chopping them up in melee, they should hang back and throw or shoot pointy things at her.

 

[Thurbane]

I can sympathise with the OP - I don't begrudge players from optimizing their characters, but sometimes you don't want to have to do a complete overhaul of your campaign world and planned encounters so that one particular character doesn't outshine all the others.

In my case, I had a Beguiler in my group who was constantly blitzing the opposition with his seemingly endless supply of Confusion and similar spells. In the particular part of the campaign world they were in, most encounters consisted of giants and humanoids, none of which had great Will saves or any SR to speak of.

When the group started to encounter more varied opponents, such as several Devils when they were going up against a powerful worshipper of Mephistopheles, who often did have decent Will saves and SR, the players started crying foul, because I was "trying to screw over the Beguiler".

Sometimes as a DM, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. The players either get bored of easy wins if you keep using the same opponents/tactics, or they cry foul if opponents start to adapt to and circumvent their tactics.

...if you want to be really nasty against the spiked chain wielder, just start giving the humanoids trained rust monsters to unleash on him, and have them all armed with wooden weapons like clubs and staffs - but expect an outcry from your players.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Considering the low base damage / poor crit stats of the chain (especially for an exotic 2H weapon), the chances of getting a kill-shot on every hit is pretty low.

That depends entirely on what qualifies as a Mook. If you go for a maxed out Str as a human, your getting +6 to damage. Throw on some power attack for a 2 handed weapon, and a Barbarian's Rage ability, and and it picks up even more.

Raging from 18 Str kicks you to 22 Str, or +6 Damage modifier, so +9 on the damage roll. This basically means that a 5th level human character as Ftr 4, Bbn 1 can single handedly take down staggering numbers of creatures with 11 or less Hp. If they max out power attack, that jumps to 21 hp or less. Granted, at that point they are reduced to +6 to hit, but how often are Orc Quality cannon fodder going to have an AC much better than 16 to 18 on default equipment and stats? Using core rules and strict guidelines for wealth, and no magic items, a 5th or 6th level character can plausibly take out 30 or more standard Orcs single handedly in melee. Is this reasonable to you?

I am a good Dm. I can run compelling encounters for 5th and 6th level characters using groups of 2 and 3 HD humanoids, even if I have to do so in melee. But I could not so so if such a character was in the party. And I do not like having to customize my encounters around the abilities of a single player in a 4 player party. Every time I find myself playing that game, I end up with encounters that become TPK's the moment the character in question is neutralized.

END COMMUNICATION