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Spiked Chain + Great Cleave = DM's Nightmare

Lord Zardoz said:
That depends entirely on what qualifies as a Mook. If you go for a maxed out Str as a human, your getting +6 to damage. Throw on some power attack for a 2 handed weapon, and a Barbarian's Rage ability, and and it picks up even more.

Raging from 18 Str kicks you to 22 Str, or +6 Damage modifier, so +9 on the damage roll. This basically means that a 5th level human character as Ftr 4, Bbn 1 can single handedly take down staggering numbers of creatures with 11 or less Hp. If they max out power attack, that jumps to 21 hp or less. Granted, at that point they are reduced to +6 to hit, but how often are Orc Quality cannon fodder going to have an AC much better than 16 to 18 on default equipment and stats? Using core rules and strict guidelines for wealth, and no magic items, a 5th or 6th level character can plausibly take out 30 or more standard Orcs single handedly in melee. Is this reasonable to you?

I am a good Dm. I can run compelling encounters for 5th and 6th level characters using groups of 2 and 3 HD humanoids, even if I have to do so in melee. But I could not so so if such a character was in the party. And I do not like having to customize my encounters around the abilities of a single player in a 4 player party. Every time I find myself playing that game, I end up with encounters that become TPK's the moment the character in question is neutralized.

END COMMUNICATION

Having trouble seeing the problem in comparison to a 5th level Wizard with a couple of fireball spells. The Wizard uses up some spells, the Barbarian uses up some hit points and a rage, otherwise similar. The Wizard could throw the fireball into a crowded room and roast a hge number of mooks that never even got to see and respond to him. The Wizard also doesn't suffer a chance that a lousy attack roll will stop his great cleave in mid stride.
 

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Thurbane said:
...When the group started to encounter more varied opponents, such as several Devils when they were going up against a powerful worshipper of Mephistopheles, who often did have decent Will saves and SR, the players started crying foul, because I was "trying to screw over the Beguiler".
Hah! :lol: The player doesn't know what he's talking about. If he needs a clue send 'im to me: I sell 'em cheap. :] ;)

The Beguiler should be thanking his lucky stars you aren't throwing the myriad opponents that are immune to mind-affecting magic. Undead? Oozes? Constructs? Plants? Swarms? Vermin? He's not being picked on...he's lucky you are *not* picking on him!

It's true that DMs have a fine line to walk. Encounters [type: Combat] should:
  • #1)challenge all the PCs,
  • #2) be varied so that different PCs can shine at different times, and
  • #3) be "played intelligently" so that the PCs can't always use the same tactics.

In this particular case, I don't see much of a problem. Bump up the CR of the mooks, and really you've addressed all three issues, without "screwing" a particular PC. Moreover raising the CR of the mooks doesn't really impact the DMs prefered playing style.

It's really not that hard.
 

Patlin said:
Having trouble seeing the problem in comparison to a 5th level Wizard with a couple of fireball spells.
Ditto...at least with a Spiked Chain weilding Bbn vs. a Fireball tossing Wizard.

OTOH, if we're talking about a Spiked Chain weilding Warblade, that's another kettle of monkeys.
 

Lord Zardoz said:
That depends entirely on what qualifies as a Mook. If you go for a maxed out Str as a human, your getting +6 to damage. Throw on some power attack for a 2 handed weapon, and a Barbarian's Rage ability, and and it picks up even more.

Raging from 18 Str kicks you to 22 Str, or +6 Damage modifier, so +9 on the damage roll. This basically means that a 5th level human character as Ftr 4, Bbn 1 can single handedly take down staggering numbers of creatures with 11 or less Hp.
A 5th level human with super-exceptional stats (going significantly above the standard 25-pt buy has been likened to a +1 or more to a character's ECL).

Lord Zardoz said:
If they max out power attack, that jumps to 21 hp or less. Granted, at that point they are reduced to +6 to hit, but how often are Orc Quality cannon fodder going to have an AC much better than 16 to 18 on default equipment and stats?
So the chain wielder is down to a 50% or worse miss chance. Great Cleave would be a wasted feat in that case; chances are he wouldn't even hit the first cleave target. That's the tradeoff with Power Attack.

Lord Zardoz said:
Using core rules and strict guidelines for wealth, and no magic items, a 5th or 6th level character can plausibly take out 30 or more standard Orcs single handedly in melee. Is this reasonable to you?
If the orcs are brainless enough to keep charging into the meat grinder, yes. But like I said I don't think you should be able to cleave off AoOs, which would cut down on the carnage significantly.
 

Also, how does a 5th level Barbarian have power attack, cleave, great cleave and exotic weapon proficiency? Even if he does have them, what can you say about such a character fighting with a single big monster with reach? You can say he has 3 nearly worthless feats, for that situation.
 


Thurbane said:
I can sympathise with the OP - I don't begrudge players from optimizing their characters, but sometimes you don't want to have to do a complete overhaul of your campaign world and planned encounters so that one particular character doesn't outshine all the others.

Admittedly, but challenging the strengths of a spiked-chain-plus-great-cleave PC doesn't often require a complete overhaul.

Thurbane said:
When the group started to encounter more varied opponents, such as several Devils when they were going up against a powerful worshipper of Mephistopheles, who often did have decent Will saves and SR, the players started crying foul, because I was "trying to screw over the Beguiler".

Say: "Yes, that's right. I designed this entire adventure to screw over the Beguiler. I guess it's about time this came out: While I like Beguiler's, I hate people who play them."

Then, roll your eyes so much you get dizzy.

:D
 

Thurbane said:
Sometimes as a DM, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. The players either get bored of easy wins if you keep using the same opponents/tactics, or they cry foul if opponents start to adapt to and circumvent their tactics. :confused:

I think the problem is that too many players make characters that are over-specialized. This is sort of a problem with Prestige Classes and such, but there's even core feats and such that give opportunities for this (the Weapon Focus/Specialization/Improved Critical feats come to mind) by allowing players to become specialized in one thing. Once a character is too specialized, they become awesome in their specialized situation, but once a DM tries to combat them or nullify any of their abilities (even for the sake of balance), it makes the player feel worthless and sometimes makes them think the DM is maliciously attacking their characters' abilities.

If Wizards comes out with a Base Class that relies solely on fighting enemies susceptible to mind-affecting effects and things with no SR and low Will Saves, then that only puts the DM between a rock and a hard place when he tries to make challenging battles, because in almost every case, anything the Beguiler fights will be completely destroyed, or completely immune. In my opinion, this is something the player should be aware of when they make a Beguiler- they should be informed that in most cases, their character will be completely worthless. But, when most players make beguilers (in my experience), they instead assume that in most cases their character will be awesome, and tend to call foul whenever they begin facing anything like Undead Oozes, Constructs, or someone with Mind Blank.

I've seen things similar to this in my groups- one time, in particular, one of the players was playing a Changeling Beguiler/Mindspy (I think?), and the DM in question has a reputation of being particularly lenient when it comes to bad things happening to the PCs. We went about half of the campaign with the Changeling being WTFPWNBBQ against all of the humanoid enemies, but as soon as we came across some undead (as there ended up being quite a bit of undead near the end of this campaign), he was completely inneffective, and the player started getting frustrated because of it. And then, in a move I should have seen coming, the DM gave him a custom magic item halfway through the campaign that, somehow, gave him the ability to use all of his mindspy abilities (and some of his spells) against undead.

I, for one, was pissed off. He gave everyone else custom magic items too, but come on- nothing he could have given me, the Fighter, could have compensated for allowing the Changeling to be able to PWN anything he came across. (Unless he gave me unbeatable SR or something. That would have been nice.) And so because one player was getting fussy because he chose an inneffective class, he ended up being promoted to effective godhood while I was still getting my butt handed to me by undead warlords.

...So, yeah. Back to my main point, it's tough for the DM to handle over-specialized characters. I'm honestly not sure what I would have done in the above situation, but whenever I'm a player I try not to specialize myself THAT much unless I'm well aware (and inform the DM) of my horrible flaws and how they'll affect me as the campaign may progress.
 

Azlan said:
It is a good idea. However, I don't want to be, all of a sudden, "meta-gaming" the formation and tactics of my mooks, from this point forward.
It says right under the hobgoblin's MM entry that "These creatures have a strong grasp of strategy and tactics and are capable of carrying out sophisticated battle plans." It's not metagaming to use creatures as they're described in the Monster Manual.

And honestly, given that you've been given several different suggestions on how to deal with this particular PC's schtick without nerfing the spiked chain, and you've basically just waved them all away, it seems to me that you didn't come here looking for discussion of and help with your problem. It seems to me that you'd already decided to nerf this particular PC and you just came here looking to get a bunch of people to agree with you that that was the right choice.
 

Grog said:
...it seems to me that you didn't come here looking for discussion of and help with your problem. It seems to me that you'd already decided to nerf this particular PC and you just came here looking to get a bunch of people to agree with you that that was the right choice.
P-lease. Are you always this antagonistic?

I came to this particular forum, first and foremost because I wanted to make sure we were doing the rules right for Great Cleave and a spiked chain. Once that was settled, the discussion veered off into alternative ways I could deal with this particular PC, in my campaign. Most of the alternative ways that were pointed out, I did not particularly care for, given my group, my campaign world, and my DM'ing style. I said I'd rather simply implement a house rule that says the wielder of a spiked chain does not threaten his surrounding 10' area (though he still threatens his surrounding 5' area). Whether or not any of you here agree with this, is irrelevant – because none of you are in my campaign. :p
 

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