D&D 5E Split the Assassin from the Rogue back into its own class

Should the Assassin be made into its own class again?

  • Yes, the Assassin should split from the Rogue and be its own class

    Votes: 15 15.2%
  • Yes, the Assassin should split from the Rogue and take the Thief with it

    Votes: 2 2.0%
  • Yes (Other)

    Votes: 3 3.0%
  • No, the Assassin should stay where it is

    Votes: 65 65.7%
  • No, the Assassin should stay where it is. Someother subclass should split from the Rogue

    Votes: 3 3.0%
  • No, just make more killy Rogue subclasses

    Votes: 5 5.1%
  • No (other)

    Votes: 8 8.1%
  • A THIEF is a THIEF! An ASSASSIN is an ASSASSIN! No Rogues.

    Votes: 5 5.1%
  • I'm about to be Sneak Attacked

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • (Currently hiding)

    Votes: 3 3.0%

  • Poll closed .
My point iss that the 5e Rogue is a chicken. It isn't designed to be a warrior. It's main attack only triggers with advantage or a "flanker". Only one of its subclasss can fight straight up and it has literally be in a one on one duel to do it. The class stabs people in the back then runs away like a punk.
You clearly haven't seen the swashbuckler. The 5e rogue is a flexible class, there are a number of of different playstyles it can use.
The Assassin isn't the best warrior. Nor a true warrior. But it can hold it's own. It doesn't poop ts pants once the guards pounce.
Really, no. That is not what the word "assassin" says to me, and it sounds like you are describing a swashbuckler.

"Assassin" says to me a character who attacks first, kills it's target in one blow, then slips away without any fighting at all. And the 5e assassin subclass is quite good at that.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
You clearly haven't seen the swashbuckler. The 5e rogue is a flexible class, there are a number of of different playstyles it can use.
I know about the swashbuckler.

I already explained this. Subclasses lack the power to truly open up new styles of play nor enhance multiple newly introduce elements..

The Swashbuckler can only duel. Rakish Audacity stops working in 2 orcs come at you.

Really, no. That is not what the word "assassin" says to me, and it sounds like you are describing a swashbuckler.

"Assassin" says to me a character who attacks first, kills it's target in one blow, then slips away without any fighting at all. And the 5e assassin subclass is quite good at that.
That's the old concept of the Assassin. The NPC Assassin.

The Modern Media Assassin slips in, target out the target, and kills/KOs everyone on the way out Black Widow, Agent 47, or James Bond style. Assassins have supplanted Pirates as the "Deadly Dex Guy with good Defence" for a few decades now. Just how Pirates took it from Musketeers before them. It's a generational thing as that Swashbuckler role shifted from genre to genre. Even ninjas are tough and brawl more now.

This is especially true in media when Assassins are on teams. That's why people are not getting the concept of the Assassin. The Ranger is the ultimate solo class as well as lorewise rangers are sneaking around slittting the throats of their favorite enemies on downtime since OD&D. 0e/1e Rangers ambushed and OHKO orcs and gobliniods like it was a joke.

Almost every Rogue sublclass is a loner as well: Thief, Trickster, Scout, Phantom, Soul Knife. They just bring those skills to the party.

The issue is there was never a Pirate or Musketeer class for D&D to pull legacy from. Also it's a tougher sell. And you can't stick Sneak attack on a Fighter without breaking the class.


Again if Barbarian and Bard can be expanded into full classes...
 

I know about the swashbuckler.

I already explained this. Subclasses lack the power to truly open up new styles of play nor enhance multiple newly introduce elements..
Nonsense.
The Swashbuckler can only duel. Rakish Audacity stops working in 2 orcs come at you.
You might try moving...
That's the old concept of the Assassin. The NPC Assassin.

The Modern Media Assassin slips in, target out the target, and kills/KOs everyone on the way out Black Widow, Agent 47, or James Bond style. Assassins have supplanted Pirates as the "Deadly Dex Guy with good Defence" for a few decades now. Just how Pirates took it from Musketeers before them. It's a generational thing as that Swashbuckler role shifted from genre to genre. Even ninjas are tough and brawl more now.
That's the D&D Assassin. It hasn't changed. Your concept is yours, not mine, and not the game's. Black Widow, for example, is quite obviously a monk. If you want a character that is tough in a brawl 5e gives you plenty of options. Your only problem is the name.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Nonsense.
Beastmaster Ranger

They had to buff it to heck to get the subclass to work.

Not everything works as a subclass.
You might try moving...
Enemies can move as well.

That's the D&D Assassin. It hasn't changed. Your concept is yours, not mine. Black Widow, for example, is quite obviously a monk. If you want a character that is tough in a brawl 5e gives you plenty of options. Your only problem is the name.
The D&D Bard was a half caster until 5e redid the concept into a full caster. 5e and 4e also grew a pair and made monks warriors finally.
The same can be done to the Assassin.

Also Black Widow isn't a monk. She exists that missing Fighter/Rogue area that is missing in D&D that the monk no longer dwells in.

I feel the community was so scarred by past edition class bloat that many are holding 5e back with the "No more classses" mindset. Despite it having over 5 full core casters now.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Playing an Assasin should be dumping a cop full of dice in damage every turn. The class for sadistic dice goblins. Just so many dice..
I like the thought but I'm tempted to say every other turn; the Assassin spends one round lining up the kill and the next round carrying it out; repeat as needed.

I'd add in that any crit on one of these attacks should be an insta-kill regardless of current h.p. total unless the target is at least 5 levels/HD higher than the Assassin.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I like the thought but I'm tempted to say every other turn; the Assassin spends one round lining up the kill and the next round carrying it out; repeat as needed.

I'd add in that any crit on one of these attacks should be an insta-kill regardless of current h.p. total unless the target is at least 5 levels/HD higher than the Assassin.
That works like the Rogue unless you double or triple it's it's Sneaky Attack dice. Which is doable.

And it lines up with my idea of having 6s add on effects or death.

Level 5

Turn 1: Set Up for kill.
Turn 2: Attack with 6d6 Sneak Attack dice. Roll a 6 to knock prone. Roll 2 6s to daze. 3 6s to paralyze. 4 6s and target must must make Con save or die.

All hits on surprised enemies are critical hits and consider set up. So 12d6 on surprise round. Oof.
 

Also Black Widow isn't a monk. She exists that missing Fighter/Rogue area that is missing in D&D that the monk no longer dwells in.
Black Widow:

1) Doesn't wear armour
2) can fight effectively without weapons
3) stuns opponents
4) runs along walls
5) Can fall great distances without taking damage
6) walks away from fireballs without taking damage.

She is a monk. Open Hand subclass.
The D&D Bard was a half caster until 5e redid the concept into a full caster.
Which sucks. Terrible decision. Especially when we have shows like The Witcher showing what a bard should be like.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
1) Doesn't wear armour
So does 99% of Marvel.
Unless you count leather as armor then she wears leather.

2) fights effectively without weapons
So does 50% of the Marvel universe

But she also prefers using weapons. Black Widow prefers his stingers and guns.


3) stuns opponents
So does 99% of Marvel heroes and antiheroes.


4) runs along walls
Eh. Not superhumanly nor supernaturally. Most warriors in marvel can do that.

5) Can fall great distances without taking damage
No she can't. She has no powers. If she jumps from higher than a normal human hero, she will take damage.


6) walks away from fireballs without taking damage.
Agree. But so can any member of a supposed Fighter/Rogue class.

Black Widow is a Fighter/Rogue until a Fighter/Rogue class is added to 5e.

In 4e, she's an Assassin. In 3e she's a Fighter/Rogue/Assassin. In 1e she's an Assassin.

You're only using monk because the Assassin class doesn't exist and the Assassin subclass of the Rogue is too soft. You are jamming her, Batman, James Bond and others in an ill-fitting class because 5e poorly supports a popular fantasy archetype. That's my fundamental point. The archetype is missing and the best candidate due to legacy is the Assassin.

Heck it help all those who want nonmagical rangers.
 

You're only using monk because the Assassin class doesn't exist and the Assassin subclass of the Rogue is too soft.
No. I am using monk because it best describes her abilities. What other Marvel characters can and cannot do is irreverent. She is not an assassin* because an assassin is someone sneaks in, stabs or poisons someone, then sneaks out again, avoiding fighting because if a fight breaks out they are screwed.


*Assassin is her job title (Background if you like). That is not the same as her class.

James Bond is a Dex Fighter (gunslinger subclass). Batman is a rogue/artificer/monk/fighter multiclass (20 levels of each). These characters are not all the same, they do not belong to the same class.
 
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vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Here's my revised assassin.

Level 3: Assassin's Tool's
You gain proficiency with the disguise kit and your choice of either poisoner's kit or forgery kit.

Level 3: Heart Seeker
You can make an attack that pierces through most defenses. As an action, you can make one attack with you a weapon with the light property. Treat the target's AC as 10 against this attack, regardless of the target's actual AC.
During the first round of combat, if you hit a creature that has no yet acted with this feature, the attack is automatically a critical hit.


Level 9: Infiltrator
You can unfailingly create false identities for yourself. You must spend one full day and 25 gp to establish the history, profession, and affiliations for an identity. You can't establish an identity that belongs to someone else. You can don or remove a disguise in 1 minute. Upon donning a disguise and behaving as your identities, you are unidentifiable as your true self. By removing your disguise and revealing your true face, you are no longer identifiable as your persona. This allows you to change appearances between two personalities as often as you wish, using one to hide the other or serve as convenient camouflage. Your ruse is indiscernible to the casual observer. If a wary creature suspects something is amiss, you have advantage on any Charisma (Deception) check you make to avoid detection.

Level 13: Darting Ghost
When you are in an area of dim light or darkness, you can use your action to become invisible until you move or take an action or a reaction. You have advantage on Initiative while invisible this way.

Level 17: Death Attack
When you score a critical hit on a creature, it must also make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus) or falls to 0 hp. On successful save, the creature is stunned until the start of its next turn.
 


Irlo

Adventurer
Any proposed class feature supporting an instant kill is not desireable or interesting to me. It's not what I'm looking for in D&D.

I can see designing an Assassin class if you're playing in a one- or two-person party, though, where the game mechanics wouldn't detract from the group experience.
 


DND_Reborn

Legend
Overall not a bad tweak from the RAW Assassin, but I wonder if this is too OP:
Level 3: Heart Seeker
You can make an attack that pierces through most defenses. As an action, you can make one attack with you a weapon with the light property. Treat the target's AC as 10 against this attack, regardless of the target's actual AC.
During the first round of combat, if you hit a creature that has no yet acted with this feature, the attack is automatically a critical hit.

At higher levels, it makes hits practically guaranteed, once you have a +9 or better on your attack roll (not hard with magic items, etc. you could have this before tier 3).

Maybe bump the AC to 15 instead of 10? 🤷‍♂️

Level 17: Death Attack
When you score a critical hit on a creature, it must also make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus) or falls to 0 hp. On successful save, the creature is stunned until the start of its next turn.
This is also a bit strong. If you have elf crit fishers you could get crits nearly 15% Do a 3-level Champion dip to crit on 19s as well and it jumps to over 27% Granted, you aren't getting it until 17th level, so maybe it is fine....

You could also do something like this:

Level 17: Death Attack
When you score a critical hit on a creature using your Heart Seeker feature, it must also make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus) or falls to 0 hp. On successful save, the creature is stunned until the start of its next turn.

This way, it isn't ALL crits, just the first one before the enemy gets to even act?


I still think having Assassin as a background is the best solution, though.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Any proposed class feature supporting an instant kill is not desireable or interesting to me. It's not what I'm looking for in D&D.

I can see designing an Assassin class if you're playing in a one- or two-person party, though, where the game mechanics wouldn't detract from the group experience.
So Save or Die spells?
 


1 extra class isn't overcomplication. That feels like hyperbole.
One extra class that overlaps significantly with three others. Where do you stop? A slightly more fighty cleric? A slightly less fighty cleric? A slightly more holy monk? Pathfinder had at least 50-something classes at last count.

5e has 13, and that is already too much overlap.
 


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