D&D 5E Split the Assassin from the Rogue back into its own class

Should the Assassin be made into its own class again?

  • Yes, the Assassin should split from the Rogue and be its own class

    Votes: 15 15.2%
  • Yes, the Assassin should split from the Rogue and take the Thief with it

    Votes: 2 2.0%
  • Yes (Other)

    Votes: 3 3.0%
  • No, the Assassin should stay where it is

    Votes: 65 65.7%
  • No, the Assassin should stay where it is. Someother subclass should split from the Rogue

    Votes: 3 3.0%
  • No, just make more killy Rogue subclasses

    Votes: 5 5.1%
  • No (other)

    Votes: 8 8.1%
  • A THIEF is a THIEF! An ASSASSIN is an ASSASSIN! No Rogues.

    Votes: 5 5.1%
  • I'm about to be Sneak Attacked

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • (Currently hiding)

    Votes: 3 3.0%

  • Poll closed .

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Brief explanations would be helpful. ;)

Mechanically, how would these work?
  1. Cultural Weaponry
    1. You choose 2 weapons as cultural weapons
    2. You can attack as a bonus action with a cultural weapon
  2. Noble Weaponry
    1. You can chose 2 weapons as noble weapons
    2. You add you Charisma mod to hit and damage roll with noble weapons
  3. Precise Attack
    1. You can cause a hit with a light or finesse weapon to be a crit
    2. You can do this a number of time equal to your Prof modifier
  4. Skirmish Attack
    1. You can add 1d4 damage and +1 AC per 10 ft you move before attacking
  5. Battle Command
    1. Warlord stuff
  6. Heedless Strike
    1. You attack and add prof bonus to hit and damage but subtract it from AC and saving throws
  7. Acrobatic Defense
    1. Your AC is 10 + Double your Dex mod if wearing no armor and wielding no shields or heavy weapons
  8. Weapon Tosser
    1. Your range with thrown weapons is doubled and you crit on a 19-20
  9. Intelligent Defense
    1. You can replace your Dex with Int when determining AC
  10. Lucky Strike
    1. When you roll a 4 with a weapon damage roll, gain a Luck Point
  11. Expert Flanker
    1. When you use the Help action on your turn, one hostile enemy within 10ft is considered "flanked"
  12. Poison Mastery
    1. Using poisoner kit, you can change a posion's damage to acid, necrotic, or radiant.
 
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  1. Cultural Weaponry
    1. You choose 2 weapons as cultural weapons
    2. You can attack as a bonus action with a cultural weapon
So, how is that better than the shortsword I can bonus attack with anyway?
  • Noble Weaponry
    1. You can chose 2 weapons as noble weapons
    2. You add you Charisma mod to hit and damage roll with noble weapons
So how does +5 points of damage compete with +11d6 sneak attack?
  • Precise Attack
    1. You can cause a hit with a light or finesse weapon to be a crit
    2. You can do this a number of time equal to your Prof modifier
Is that with or without sneak attack? With it's overpowered, without it's garbage.
  • Skirmish Attack
    1. You can add 1d4 damage and +1 AC per 10 ft you move before attacking
So I give up +11d6 damage in order to run around the target in circles?

I could go on, but I can't be bothered. I still want to know what the Weapon Tosser does though...
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Interesting thought.

It makes me wonder if SA dice could be used in other fashions. I mean, I don't mind a Rogue class, but it bothers me that most people play them as so focused on combat and the SA damage. I like to play Rogues who are primarily skill experts, who can fight, but are usually more part of a party due to their skills. I like them more like the "Expert" sidekick class.
The first Artificer UA had an Alchemist subclass that used different potion/items that progressed exactly at the same rate as sneak attack.

If a player liked the idea of an expert without the stabby-stab part of the Rogue, I'd let them use that alchemist's item instead.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
So, how is that better than the shortsword I can bonus attack with anyway?

So how does +5 points of damage compete with +11d6 sneak attack?

Is that with or without sneak attack? With it's overpowered, without it's garbage.

So I give up +11d6 damage in order to run around the target in circles?

I could go on, but I can't be bothered. I still want to know what the Weapon Tosser does though...
I've said it multiple times now.
My proposal would not be removing Sneak Attack.
The Rogue would get a slower progression than the Assassin and get additional features.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
EDIT: I see from another post these don't remove SA, but maybe use a lesser version like half SA damage. So, ignore my comments about comparing to SA damage.

Thanks. A quick critique follows:
  1. Cultural Weaponry
    1. You choose 2 weapons as cultural weapons
    2. You can attack as a bonus action with a cultural weapon
1.1. Isn't really that beneficial since they have most weapons they would already use. They could gain some heavy weapons, which might be interesting, but since the damage potential is no where near on par with SA, I don't know if it was meant to make up for losing SA.

1.2. This conflicts with Cunning Action, and Rogues often already use their bonus action for TWF.

  • Noble Weaponry
    1. You can chose 2 weapons as noble weapons
    2. You add you Charisma mod to hit and damage roll with noble weapons
1. Same as above.
2. Not bad, but increases MAD dependency a bit.

  • Precise Attack
    1. You can cause a hit with a light or finesse weapon to be a crit
    2. You can do this a number of time equal to your Prof modifier
This is better. Again, I don't know if your idea was to "compete" with SA, in which case it is woefully low, but if not I could get behind this.

  • Skirmish Attack
    1. You can add 1d4 damage and +1 AC per 10 ft you move before attacking
Hmm... A different mechanics with the per 10 feet moved. How long would the AC bump last? I think this has some promise.

  • Battle Command
    1. Warlord stuff
Which means little to me, but ok.

  • Heedless Strike
    1. You attack and add prof bonus to hit and damage but subtract it from AC and saving throws
This one is good IMO. How often? Would you limit the number of uses? Also, how long would the penalties last, until the start of your next turn?

  • Acrobatic Defense
    1. Your AC is 10 + Double your Dex mod if wearing no armor and wielding no shields or heavy weapons
No issues with this one, but instead of double DEX mod, how about DEX mod and proficiency bonus?

  • Weapon Tosser
    1. You range with thrown weapons is doubled and you crit on a 19-20
We have a feat Long Thrower that is similar to this.

  • Intelligent Defense
    1. You can replace your Dex with Int when determining AC
Like this one.

  • Lucky Strike
    1. When you roll a 4 with a weapon damage roll, gain a Luck Point
Luck point would be used for...?

  • Expert Flanker
    1. When you use the Help action on your turn, one hostile enemy within 10ft is considered "flanked"
Good. You might also allow the PC to take the Help action as a bonus action?

  • Poison Mastery
    1. Using poisoner kit, you can change a posion's damage to acid, necrotic, or radiant.
I like this one as well. It would be an interesting replacement for SA, where you can craft poisons that deal "SA" amount of damage as well. It allows SA to be used but not about the location of the hit, etc. but more the type of damage.

Thanks for the breakdowns.
 

I've said it multiple times now.
My proposal would not be removing Sneak Attack.
The Rogue would get a slower progression than the Assassin and get additional features.
Removing or nerfing - it has the same effect.

I think removing - making it assassin only feature - actually makes sense.

The only problem is giving all those other rogue subclasses a combat feature that is of equal value and thematically appropriate.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Removing or nerfing - it has the same effect.

I think removing - making it assassin only feature - actually makes sense.

The only problem is giving all those other rogue subclasses a combat feature that is of equal value and thematically appropriate.

If you were to go strip SA from rogue and only give it to the Assassin class, then I'd make rogue get bigger crits. Reroll damage 2, 3, 4 5, or 6 times.

Make them combat equal to a cleric but when they get lucky...
 

Make them combat equal to a cleric but when they get lucky...
The rogue needs to be considerably better at weapon damage than a spell-throwing cleric!

And you need to come up with a different thing for each rogue subclass.

(a lot of what you are saying is coming across as hate for rogues. Is that really what you mean?)
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The rogue needs to be considerably better at weapon damage than a spell-throwing cleric!

And you need to come up with a different thing for each rogue subclass.

(a lot of what you are saying is coming across as hate for rogues. Is that really what you mean?)

I don't hate rogues.
I think the D&D community stuffs too much into the rogue class and is ruining it and the fighter.

The Rogue isn't even a real class right now. It and the fighter are foster homes for subclasses.

Rogue doesn't even mean anything except "Not a Warrior or Spellcaster". Rogue flavor is dead and I blame WOTC and a whole chunk of the community.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I don't hate rogues.
I think the D&D community stuffs too much into the rogue class and is ruining it and the fighter.

The Rogue isn't even a real class right now. It and the fighter are foster homes for subclasses.

Rogue doesn't even mean anything except "Not a Warrior or Spellcaster". Rogue flavor is dead and I blame WOTC and a whole chunk of the community.
The Rogue and the Fighter do have the highest power budget assigned to their Subclasses of the core 12, as opposed to the more core feature oriented Bard for example.

That's a feature, not a bug. It allows for a variety of archetypes to be covered elegantly.
 

I don't hate rogues.
I think the D&D community stuffs too much into the rogue class and is ruining it and the fighter.

The Rogue isn't even a real class right now. It and the fighter are foster homes for subclasses.

Rogue doesn't even mean anything except "Not a Warrior or Spellcaster". Rogue flavor is dead and I blame WOTC and a whole chunk of the community.
Okay, so the thing you hate is subclasses.

But "Rogue" is a very good catch-all term. "a person or thing that behaves in an aberrant or unpredictable way" - dictionary definition 2. See Rogue Squadron (Star Wars), Rogue (X-Men) etc.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
I don't hate rogues.
I think the D&D community stuffs too much into the rogue class and is ruining it and the fighter.

The Rogue isn't even a real class right now. It and the fighter are foster homes for subclasses.

Rogue doesn't even mean anything except "Not a Warrior or Spellcaster". Rogue flavor is dead and I blame WOTC and a whole chunk of the community.
I agree with much of this. I think the problem is there isn't an "Expert" class and unfortunately the Rogue and Bard, due to expertise, are forced to serve that role.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The Rogue and the Fighter do have the highest power budget assigned to their Subclasses of the core 12, as opposed to the more core feature oriented Bard for example.

That's a feature, not a bug. It allows for a variety of archetypes to be covered elegantly.
It's a feature to not create new classes and because WOTC was afraid of the fanbbase to stamp down on core flavor or mechanics.

It's 1000% a feature. A bad one IMO.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
It's a feature to not create new classes and because WOTC was afraid of the fanbbase to stamp down on core flavor or mechanics.

It's 1000% a feature. A bad one IMO.
Mechanics aren't flavor and do not have flavor in themselves, they serve flavor within a design framework. Elegance is one of the best indicators of good design.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
One extra class that overlaps significantly with three others. Where do you stop? A slightly more fighty cleric? A slightly less fighty cleric? A slightly more holy monk? Pathfinder had at least 50-something classes at last count.

5e has 13, and that is already too much overlap.
Overlap doesn't matter. If for some reason you or your players care about overlap, just choose classes that don't. So if player A picks the slightly more fighty cleric, nobody else picks a cleric. That way your players don't overlap and those of us who don't care about overlap and want more classes all have what they want.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
Overlap doesn't matter. If for some reason you or your players care about overlap, just choose classes that don't. So if player A picks the slightly more fighty cleric, nobody else picks a cleric. That way your players don't overlap and those of us who don't care about overlap and want more classes all have what they want.
I mean, I'd say the reasonabl3 compromise Ground is what we have now already with 13 Classes in 5E, instead of 4 with robust Subclasses as D&D Next started with.
 

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