[SPOILERS][OT] "Return of the King" -- Does Shelob get shafted?
- Thread starter mooby
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kengar
First Post
Well I -for one- am willing to trust PJ's judgement on the Shelob issue. He has shown amazingly good sense in his adaptation with the first movie and he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
If someone had told me before seeing the FOTR that they had left out Tom Bombadil and swapped Glorfindel with Arwen, I would have said that Jackson was insane. Having seen the film (again & again
), though, I have to say he made the right calls for the film and kept true to the spirit of the story.
If someone had told me before seeing the FOTR that they had left out Tom Bombadil and swapped Glorfindel with Arwen, I would have said that Jackson was insane. Having seen the film (again & again
), though, I have to say he made the right calls for the film and kept true to the spirit of the story.
Brown Jenkin
First Post
Warning! Spoilers ahead.
I'm am very confused after reading this quote. What is he thinking? I will agree that Frodo's half of the story is about the relationship between him, Sam and Gollum. However to say that they wanted to have a conclusion with those characters without including Shelob seams that they are missing the point of this relationship. Shelob is not just some monsterous spider that jumps out at them, to think this misses the point of Shelob. She is instead the embodimemnt of Gollum's betrayal of Frodo.
As far as I undertsand the relationship Frodo believes he understands Gollum and that with the power of the ring (only somewhat literally) he is able to control Gollum. Gollum's betrayal of this trust is a critical part of this relationship. This also helps to demonstrate the power of the ring and how no-one but Sauron is able properly use it. Frodo by using it to control Gollum is only being decieved by the Ring which instead of achieving the good result intended instead leads to tragedy.
Additionally this event also wraps up Sam's relationships with both Frodo and Gollum. With Frodo's death Sam is torn in his feelings. Always suspisious of Gollum this event only reinforces is previous feelings. Sam now has another problem when his devotion to Frodo is further tested by what he is to do next. Does he take care of his fallen Master or does he do what his Master could no longer do and continue on the quest lone, abandoning Frodo's remains.
I am currious how we are to concude with these characters without incuding this defineing event that brings all of thier relationships to thier conclusion. It is not that I need Shelob herself since on her own she is a minor character that could be replaced with something else, but the role she plays is integral to concluding and breaking the trio. Just as FoTR is ended by the breaking of the Fellowship so to is TTT ended with the breaking of Frodo and Sam's bonds by the betrayal of Gollum.
I am not fixated on needing to maintain all aspects of the books but I feel this is a larger break than what happpened in the First Movie. I missed Tom Bombadill, but understood that he needed to be cut for time. I understood the desire to up Arwen's role at the expense of Glorfindel. I did not complain about upping the action scenes in Moria to increase pacing. I did not complain that the FotR concluded with chapter 1 of TTT because that helped wrap up the Story that was being told. I am concearned however that Jackson here is changing an important part of the story that Tolkien was telling. While I may not always agree with Tolkien's aproach, here I agree with him 100% that this part of the story should end with the death of Frodo.
Appologies to all for the length of that, but I got a little perturbed after reading Jackson's quote and needed to respond as best I could. Hopefully Jackson will prove me wrong when I finaly see this.
I'm am very confused after reading this quote. What is he thinking? I will agree that Frodo's half of the story is about the relationship between him, Sam and Gollum. However to say that they wanted to have a conclusion with those characters without including Shelob seams that they are missing the point of this relationship. Shelob is not just some monsterous spider that jumps out at them, to think this misses the point of Shelob. She is instead the embodimemnt of Gollum's betrayal of Frodo.
As far as I undertsand the relationship Frodo believes he understands Gollum and that with the power of the ring (only somewhat literally) he is able to control Gollum. Gollum's betrayal of this trust is a critical part of this relationship. This also helps to demonstrate the power of the ring and how no-one but Sauron is able properly use it. Frodo by using it to control Gollum is only being decieved by the Ring which instead of achieving the good result intended instead leads to tragedy.
Additionally this event also wraps up Sam's relationships with both Frodo and Gollum. With Frodo's death Sam is torn in his feelings. Always suspisious of Gollum this event only reinforces is previous feelings. Sam now has another problem when his devotion to Frodo is further tested by what he is to do next. Does he take care of his fallen Master or does he do what his Master could no longer do and continue on the quest lone, abandoning Frodo's remains.
I am currious how we are to concude with these characters without incuding this defineing event that brings all of thier relationships to thier conclusion. It is not that I need Shelob herself since on her own she is a minor character that could be replaced with something else, but the role she plays is integral to concluding and breaking the trio. Just as FoTR is ended by the breaking of the Fellowship so to is TTT ended with the breaking of Frodo and Sam's bonds by the betrayal of Gollum.
I am not fixated on needing to maintain all aspects of the books but I feel this is a larger break than what happpened in the First Movie. I missed Tom Bombadill, but understood that he needed to be cut for time. I understood the desire to up Arwen's role at the expense of Glorfindel. I did not complain about upping the action scenes in Moria to increase pacing. I did not complain that the FotR concluded with chapter 1 of TTT because that helped wrap up the Story that was being told. I am concearned however that Jackson here is changing an important part of the story that Tolkien was telling. While I may not always agree with Tolkien's aproach, here I agree with him 100% that this part of the story should end with the death of Frodo.
Appologies to all for the length of that, but I got a little perturbed after reading Jackson's quote and needed to respond as best I could. Hopefully Jackson will prove me wrong when I finaly see this.
She will be there
Don't fret man!! Everything you are worried about wil still happen. Shelob isn't being left out she is being postponed until movie three.
Personally, I think that TTT will end with Sam, Frodo and Gollum watching the army of Morder pour forth from the black gates. That's be a suitably intimidating and scary way to end the movie; to have the only hope of good see the immense might of the enemy.
I am all for pushing Shelob of until RotK. What an intense opnening section that confrontation will make!!!
Don't fret man!! Everything you are worried about wil still happen. Shelob isn't being left out she is being postponed until movie three.
Personally, I think that TTT will end with Sam, Frodo and Gollum watching the army of Morder pour forth from the black gates. That's be a suitably intimidating and scary way to end the movie; to have the only hope of good see the immense might of the enemy.
I am all for pushing Shelob of until RotK. What an intense opnening section that confrontation will make!!!
Brown Jenkin
First Post
If you want to make an arguement that for time reasons things needed to be pushed back I might listen, but Jackson states that he is pushing it back so he can focus on the relationship of the trio. I am argueing that by leaving out this part Jackson is not in fact doing that since he is leaving out the conclusion of thier relationship.
Brown Jenkin
First Post
Re: She will be there
I will guess you mean the army leaving Minas Morgul lead by the Nazgul, since the scene at the black gate is well before the Oliphant and Faramir which are in the trailers.
durath said:
I will guess you mean the army leaving Minas Morgul lead by the Nazgul, since the scene at the black gate is well before the Oliphant and Faramir which are in the trailers.
Pylar
First Post
Shelob & Gollum
I think PJ's decision had a lot to do with the attention span of most viewers that aren't familiar with the book. If he ended TTT with Shelob's attack that would mean that Gollum would be missing from all of ROTK untill he jumps Frodo in Mt Doom. What if you had never watched the first two movies, how confused would you be when Gollum jumped out and attacked Frodo. This way he can begin the movie with Gollum's attack let the new viewer (and remind the non-Tolkien fan viewer) about Gollum so he isn't a brand new character during the fight at the crack of Mt Doom. Granted the diehard Tolkien fan (like me) might not care for the change, but he had to think about the millions of folks that have never picked up the book. Just my 2 cents!
I think PJ's decision had a lot to do with the attention span of most viewers that aren't familiar with the book. If he ended TTT with Shelob's attack that would mean that Gollum would be missing from all of ROTK untill he jumps Frodo in Mt Doom. What if you had never watched the first two movies, how confused would you be when Gollum jumped out and attacked Frodo. This way he can begin the movie with Gollum's attack let the new viewer (and remind the non-Tolkien fan viewer) about Gollum so he isn't a brand new character during the fight at the crack of Mt Doom. Granted the diehard Tolkien fan (like me) might not care for the change, but he had to think about the millions of folks that have never picked up the book. Just my 2 cents!
Last edited:
jdavis
First Post
As long as they don't mess up the scene it doesn't bother me where they put it, I understand the reasons for it and I don't think this will do anything to hinder or take away from the films. I don't see how they could of posibly left it out entirely as it was very important and I can wait for the third movie to see it, should start the third movie off really well. I really hope that nothing else got pushed back to the third movie though as that would take too much away from all the stuff that is supposed to happen in it.
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