Spring attack and Mantis Leap

[Rybaer]

I've got a player who'd like to combine spring attack with mantis leap...essentially leaping in for the damage bonus, and then moving away from the target with the remainder of his movement via spring attack. (He's a monk and has lots of movement to spare.)

I've more or less ruled that it's one or the other for this reason... The Mantis Leap is a modified charge attack. Charge attacks only allow you to move in a straight line toward the target. The Spring Attack feat allows movement before and after attacking, in any direction desired. The Spring Attack limits the character to moving his total base move, whereas a charge attack allows for up to double base move.

What I'm asking is whether I've ruled correctly on this or not.

Thanks!

 

[kreynolds]

What I'm asking is whether I've ruled correctly on this or not.

Correct. Just my opinion though.

 

[drnuncheon]

I've got a player who'd like to combine spring attack with mantis leap...essentially leaping in for the damage bonus, and then moving away from the target with the remainder of his movement via spring attack. (He's a monk and has lots of movement to spare.)

I've more or less ruled that it's one or the other for this reason... The Mantis Leap is a modified charge attack. Charge attacks only allow you to move in a straight line toward the target. The Spring Attack feat allows movement before and after attacking, in any direction desired. The Spring Attack limits the character to moving his total base move, whereas a charge attack allows for up to double base move.

I would allow it, but he'd have to fulfill the requirements for both. That is, he would have to:

a) move in a straight line for all of his movement, and
b) only move his base move.

This would be the classic martial-arts movie 'leap through the air and whack them as you sail by' maneuver. The straight-line restriction makes it a lot less problematic.

J

 

[AGGEMAM]

Unfortunately the above poster forget a tiny detail, namely that the rules DOES NOT allow it, tough.

Mantis Leap requires you to make a 'normal charge attack' and charging requires you to STOP MOVING AS SOON AS YOU THREATEN YOUR ENEMY (PHB, page 124).

Spring does not specify that it break that rule, so it doen't.

 

[Artoomis]

I agree with AGGEMAM, but the Sage ruled you can use a Charge with Spring Attack - you just have to keep goign in a straight line.

If you follow the Sage's advice, then you should allow Mantis Leap with Spring Attack.

If you do not allow charging with a Spring Attack, you should not allow Mantis Leap with Spring Attack.

 

[AGGEMAM]

BTW, Artoomis, is that in your ultimate guide?

(For some reason your page doesn't load right now.)

IMO, The Sage is actually changing the rules here, and not just extrapolating on the intent.

 

[drnuncheon]

Unfortunately the above poster forget a tiny detail, namely that the rules DOES NOT allow it, tough.

Forgot nothing.

I said I would allow it. Not the rules or the Sage or the d20 Nitpickers Association. I. Me. Opinion.

And what you forgot is that the rules are ambiguous in this case. If it were clear cut we wouldn't have had umpty pages on Spring Attack vs. Charge.

So don't go shouting that the rules do or do not allow something when they are most definitely open to interpretation.

J

 

[AGGEMAM]

I am very sorry if I offended you.

IMO the rules are very clear, but alas YMMV.

Sorry!

 

[drnuncheon]

I am very sorry if I offended you.

IMO the rules are very clear, but alas YMMV.

I think that if the rules were clear this thread and the others on the topic would not exist.

The question rests on whether or not the ability of Spring Attack to let you move both before and after your attack trumps the restriction on the charge action that makes you stop when you threaten your target.

Since there is not a clear order of precedence, it is indeed very ambiguous. Normally one cannot move both before and after an attack in any case, so the charge restriction simply prevents you from running past the target before you make your strike.

Spring attack allows you to break the rule about not moving before and after an attack - this could be read as overriding the charge restriction, or it could be just as easily read as being subject to it. This is why I believe that the rules are in this case ambiguous.

In general, I tend to side with the feats as taking precedence over the generic rules, since feats are by their nature more specific.

Since other feats similar in nature to Spring Attack (Fly-by attack and ride-by attack) allowed charges to be used with them, I felt it was reasonable to allow this capability with Spring Attack as well.



BTW, the reason I was upset was not because you disagreed with me but the way in which you did it. When someone says "the rules DOES NOT allow it, tough" - that indicates to me someone who is not even willing to admit the posibility that they are wrong or to look at other ways of seeing things.

I also apologize, for my rather heated response.

J

 

[Artoomis]

First, this is not in the Guide, I'll have to add it.

Second, the feat, as written, does not support charge used with Spring Attack, because Charge is NOT "the attack action." Not that it should keep you from combining charge with Spring Attack, since the Sage did say it was allowed.

So, anyway, it's a fair statement to say the rules do not allow it, as that is what the language says as it was written.

What they MEANT is another thing all together, if you take the Sage's view as an indicator of intent, then by all means allow a Spring Attack + Charge combination.