Spring Attacking Rogue questions

[Shadeus]

So we are starting a new campaign in the relatively near future and I'm playing the rogue. His stats are: S 10 D 17 C 15 I 17 W 12 Ch 14. His feat progression will look something like this: Dodge (1st), Mobility (1st-human), Weapon Finesse (3rd), Spring Attack (6th). Beyond that, I'm really not sure what I should take.

Basically I see this as being a melee-based rogue. The three areas of concern are:

1. Can he hit the target (does he has a good enough attack bonus)?
2. How high can you get his AC? (in case someone attacks him)
3. If he's hit, will he survive?

I was thinking the best way to avoid 2 and 3 was to use spring attack to get off a sneak attack and then force them to charge or some other strategy to avoid multiple attacks. I figured for level 9, I could go with either Staggering Strike (CAdv) or Hamstring (CW). Staggering strike - I don't lose my 2d6 dmg, but with a Fort save it's not a guarentee it will work. Hamstring, even at half-movement will he be able to get out of range of a foe? And ranged attackers and/or spellcasters are unaffected.

Also is Spring Attack worth it at level 6? I mean, 6th-level fighter-like classes are right where you start getting multiple attacks. Should I hold off until level 9 for it? Is Spring Attack worth it at all or should I just rely on Tumble and get Acrobatic Strike (PHII) at level 9?

The other option I see is going defensive and getting Improved Toughness maybe. Or Einhander to increase his AC bonus when fighting defensively. (Side Note: Can you use the Einhander feat (PHII) with a buckler?)

Thanks everyone for the advise.

 

[Jack of Shadows]

Hmmm....

I've never found Spring Attack to be all that useful. Generally it's most valuable when striking Large or large creatures as you can get to them without drawing attacks of opportunity and then get out of their threat range. Provided you have a tank keeping them in place it's a zero risk scenario. Unfortunately, you give up your iterative attacks at higher levels and if a tank is keeping the target in place you're better to tumble in to flank and do multiple sneak attacks.

For a melee rogue I would look at Weapon Focus (Rapier most likely). This increases your chance to hit, combined with Weapon Finesse you should be trailing close behind the Fighters in attack bonus. I would also look at any feats that increase your ability to feint via the Bluff skill, especially those that bring down the time requirement. Your sneak attack is your primary damage ability and any means you can find to increase the opportunities to use it should be pursued.

You may also want to look at the Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, Adaptable Flanker chain in PHII. These will REALLY increase your talent with sneak attacks.

Jack

 

[mikebr99]

Well, spring attack is a good way for anyone to do some damage and limit the damage they take... but now you are going to have to work out how you are going to add the sneak attack damage your one attack.

Springing to a flanking position all the time works.

Improved invisible

ring of blinking

Or hiding... see C.Adventurer p101 for attacking away from cover.


Mike

 

[mikebr99]

Oh... and two weapon fighting makes alot of sense for Rogues.... YMMV


Mike

 

[Shadeus]

Hmmm....

I've never found Spring Attack to be all that useful. Generally it's most valuable when striking Large or large creatures as you can get to them without drawing attacks of opportunity and then get out of their threat range. Provided you have a tank keeping them in place it's a zero risk scenario. Unfortunately, you give up your iterative attacks at higher levels and if a tank is keeping the target in place you're better to tumble in to flank and do multiple sneak attacks.

For a melee rogue I would look at Weapon Focus (Rapier most likely). This increases your chance to hit, combined with Weapon Finesse you should be trailing close behind the Fighters in attack bonus. I would also look at any feats that increase your ability to feint via the Bluff skill, especially those that bring down the time requirement. Your sneak attack is your primary damage ability and any means you can find to increase the opportunities to use it should be pursued.

You may also want to look at the Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, Adaptable Flanker chain in PHII. These will REALLY increase your talent with sneak attacks.

Jack

While I agree with this, my fundemental problem is that...when I played I fighter, I always looked forward to the rogue being next to me. Sure, it's one big hit of damage. But with my iterative attacks and the rogues penchant for low ACs, it was almost a sure kill. I mean, couple that with the d6 hit points and it's death on a stick!

Vexing Flanker was another option I was considering too. But the problem is I don't really want to stick around for some monster to pummel me to a fine paste!

 

[Shadeus]

Well, spring attack is a good way for anyone to do some damage and limit the damage they take... but now you are going to have to work out how you are going to add the sneak attack damage your one attack.

Springing to a flanking position all the time works.

Improved invisible

ring of blinking

Or hiding... see C.Adventurer p101 for attacking away from cover.


Mike

I was planning on doing the spring attack into flank (or winning init). The problem with two weapons is if he's constantly moving, then it's not worth it because he'll never get that second attack. If I decide this character will be one that moves in and stays in, well two-weapon fighting is a no-brainer. I'm still concerned about being hit and not having the hit points to stay in a big fight.

What kind of items should I be looking for? It looks like a mithral chain shirt or breastplate might be the way to go. What kind of AC should I be looking for at say level 5, 10, and 15?

Now you've got me thinking if it's worth it to stick to one attack per round (which is all he gets until level 8 anyway, assuming full rogue levels) or should he stay in there and try to slug it out and go with two-weapon fighting and vexing flanker.

 

[Demoquin]

My Assassin did extremely well with spring attack and TWF. Its all about options. Granted it might not be worth Springing every chance. I would Spiring to an enemy and get back far enough so that he would only get one hit if he targets me then wait till the tank comes in then start the flanking. While flanking, whip that other dagger out and butcher the poor sob.

Feats i took was Dodge, Reflexes, Mobility (for Shadowdancer), Finesse, Flick of the Wrist, Imp Initiative.

 

[nittanytbone]

I'd suggest getting Power Attack and using a big two-handed weapon. You're only getting one attack per round, so it better count.

I'd rearrange attributes like so:

S 17 D 17 C 15 I 14 W 12 Ch 10

Your goal is to be a combat fighter-rogue -- why a 17 in int? Maxing one more skill is not going to help your damage output.

I would also suggest either a two level fighter dip or a two level human paragon dip (for feats and/or adaptive learning if skills are that big of an issue).

Feats could look something like this:

1 - Dodge, Mobility
3 - Power Attack
6 - Spring Attack
Ftr 1 - Combat Expertise*
Ftr 2 - Improved Trip*

With this sort of approach, you run in, trip the opponent with something like a halberd, and then power attack the heck out of them. If you fail to trip them, then just spring away, rinse, wash, and repeat.

Improved Initiative and Elusive Target would both be excellent feats to squeeze in if you don't like the tripping idea; if so, then go for a greatsword.

Whatever you do, TWF should NOT be combined with spring attacking. Both are fairly feat intensive, and besides, spring attacking totally precludes a full attack, which makes TWF useless.

I'd try to pick up something along these lines:

Rog 3 (sneak attack)/Ftr 2/Scout 3 (skirmish)/Barbarian 1 for rage and fast movement/Any PrC that offers SA dice and full BAB (such as Nightsong Enforcer 1)

 

[Kobold Stew]

Nittanybone's advice mostly goes against my experience playing a rogue (and from what I've seen). What follows is not ultra-min/maxed, but works towards a solid and fun build.

As a combat rogue, your job is to get into flanking positions so that you get your sneak attack bonus. That is where your damage comes from.

Power attack is different: it comes from sacrificing BAB for damage: as a rogue you do not have BAB to spare (so you have less to give up in any given combat than a fighter).

The theory that "You're only getting one attack per round, so it better count" is true, but it does not mean you want to go Powerattack: you want to ensure you hit and get your Sneak attack bonus. The TWF route increases your chance to get that fixed bonus: really, there's little more thrilling in a game when you are still at mid-levels and you are looking for that fifteenth d6 when you are rolling damage. The returns of powerattack are not going to match that.

Dex and Con are obviously important. With weapon finesse, you reduce MAD. Using light weapons is not a problem, since your damage isn't coming from the weapons, it is coming from sneak attack.

Other feats: Imp init is good for getting sneak attack; Iron will is unsexy but often useful, IME. I've not played a spring attacking rogue, but it should be possible--you trade off the chance at multiple attacks for increased safety. without 4-6 levels of fighter, you unlikely have the feats for both, and if you have that, your damage/attack is down 3d6.

One advantage of this build is that it works particularly well for small characters (with dex bonuses -- goblins, halflings, kobolds). But Human is fine too!

Two further things:
1. You don't need to go heavily into prestige classes. Depending on your concept, there are reasons to pick up a level or two in fighter or ranger or barb or sorc, perhaps, but a relatively straight rogue is more solid than most give it credit for.

2. Not everything is susceptible to sneak attacks. For that you have UMD and a couple of wands with attacking spells.

Hope this helps.

 

[Demoquin]

With 17 INT you could take a 3 lvl dip into Swashbuckler. That would add +INT mod to dmg (with a finesse weapon) and AC (if you are unarmored).