Spring Attacking Rogue questions

[nittanytbone]

Nittanybone's advice mostly goes against my experience playing a rogue (and from what I've seen). What follows is not ultra-min/maxed, but works towards a solid and fun build.

As a combat rogue, your job is to get into flanking positions so that you get your sneak attack bonus. That is where your damage comes from.

Power attack is different: it comes from sacrificing BAB for damage: as a rogue you do not have BAB to spare (so you have less to give up in any given combat than a fighter).

A Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Barb 1 is only -1 BAB compared to a straight full-BAB class.

Power Attack is one of the most reliable ways to get massive damage against anything in the game, especially with only one attack per round.

Direct Comparison:

Rogue 6 vs Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Barb 1, each attacking a target that has AC 20.

The Rogue 6 has BAB +4, Dex +4, Mwork Weapon +1, and is flanking +2, for a total of +11 to hit. His average damage (assuming sneak attack works) is 1d6 rapier + 0 str + 3d6 SA = 14 damage. Thus, his damage per round is 0.55*14=7.7. Even if we give this build 17 str and thus +3 damage it is still lower than the alternative below.

The Ftr/Rogue has BAB +5, Str +4, Mwork Weapon +1, and is flanking +2, for a total of+12 to hit. His average damage (assuming -1 power attack and sneak attack) is 2d6 greats word + 6 str + 2d6 SA + 2 PA = 22. Thus his damage per round is 0.55x22=12.1. In reality, it should be even higher -- those fighter levels allow for nifty feats like "weapon focus" which boost damage output yet mroe.

Scale this equation for varying target ACs or add more levels to the build; I am pretty sure that the power attacking variety will always do more damage in a spring attack build. Sneak Attack (and ranger favored enemy, and any sort of precision damage) owns with multiple attacks (TWF, Rapid Shot, etc). When only one attack per round is possible, you need to be using a big weapon and hitting for a lot of damage.

Admittedly, the pure rogue does have more skill points. However, the levels of fighter in my strength-based build could easily be dropped for something that has more SP (ranger, barbarian, whatever) if that is a concern.

 

[Shadeus]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

The rub is although I'm trying to make a melee-based rogue, he will definitely need to be able to do the "rogue" stuff like finding/disabling traps and opening locks. None of what I've seen precludes this, but limits the availablity of some "nice to have" skills like UMD, balance, and escape artist (he's basically hopeless when grappled).

nittanytbone: I honestly never thought of the power attacking rogue. I was along the lines of Kobold Stew feeling that MAD was going to eat the character up and I'd never been able to keep up with all the abilities I'd need. But maybe you are on to something.

Let me give some more info and explain why I didn't put the 17 into Str. The rest of the party:

human ranger
half-orc barbarian
half-elf cleric
elven wizard
human rogue

With the ranger (TWF path) and the barbarian, I really didn't think we needed another "stand up and brawl" character. He needs to be utility, but not so much so that he's worthless in combat. That's where I came up with the spring attack idea because I didn't think I could give him enough defensive feats to get that AC up.

I thought about swashbuckler, but the skills hit is pretty harsh. Well, it's 4 points (instead of 8). That's free weapon finesse too, so maybe it's worth it.

If I didn't go spring attack, that frees up 3 feats. That means I could invest in TWF, but also means I need to think of some defensive feats to keep him alive. Better AC and hit points will be a must then.

It seems I'm of two minds on this now. At first, spring attack was the clear winner for me. But now that I'm looking at some suboptimal damage, maybe it's not worth it.

 

[the Jester]

My advice would be to take Dodge and Weapon Finesse at 1st, Mobility at 3rd and Spring Attack at 6th. You'll get a lot more use out of WF than Mobility, especially if you're a decent tumbler.

 

[Shadeus]

My advice would be to take Dodge and Weapon Finesse at 1st, Mobility at 3rd and Spring Attack at 6th. You'll get a lot more use out of WF than Mobility, especially if you're a decent tumbler.

I can't. Weapon Finesse has a +1 BAB pre-req.

 

[mikebr99]

I would recommend the Spring attack route... in light of the party make-up. You'd be making the Ranger feel inadequate if you to went the TWF route.


Mike

 

[Shadeus]

I would recommend the Spring attack route... in light of the party make-up. You'd be making the Ranger feel inadequate if you to went the TWF route.


Mike

You must be playing in my group. That is EXACTLY my fear with going TWF. He's a good player, but he's no where near the power gamer than I am...and we play a "dungeon crawl classic" style campaign where all NPCs are for killing.

Despite it being suboptimal, it looks like Spring Attack is the way to go.

Some questions that I didn't get answered along the way:

1. Einhander feat (PHII) - can you use a buckler and still get the bonus to AC when fighting defensively?
2. Staggering strike or Hamstring? - One is guarenteed but with limited usefullness. The other is a Fort save (a decent one...ave 21 around level 9) but has lots of applications.

 

[Sqwonk]

The rogue in my game is a Spring Attack wonder. He uses his boots of flying to full advantage. You need a way to inrease your move to make Spring Attack better. He does not necessarily take an attack every round - but he times/place them right to do quite a bit of damage with Sneak Attack and his rapier.

 

[Shadeus]

The rogue in my game is a Spring Attack wonder. He uses his boots of flying to full advantage. You need a way to inrease your move to make Spring Attack better. He does not necessarily take an attack every round - but he times/place them right to do quite a bit of damage with Sneak Attack and his rapier.

FLYING!! **rubs his hands together evilly**

 

[Aust Diamondew]

If you want to play a highly mobile spring attacking rogue consider taking a level of barbarian.
+10 ft speed helps with spring attacks
Martial Weapon Proficiency will net you some good reach weapons (helps keep you out of opponents range and gets you an AoO when opponents close to fight you after you spring away).
Rage will let you hit more often when you use it.

A couple levels of fighter for bonus feats might be good too but will hurt skills and sneak attack progression.

 

[mikebr99]

FLYING!! **rubs his hands together evilly**

Or for 750gp... get a wand of Expeditious Retreat, that you can use with UMD.

Mike