Spycraft Action Dice in 3E D&D

[Abraxas]

Has anyone used the Action Dice idea from Spycraft in their D&D game? If so how did it affect play?

Of particular interest to me is the effect on spellcasters (both sides boosting saving throw rolls). Did you allow spellcasters to boost the save DCs of their spells?

Im planning a low magic campaign and thought the use of action dice might offset the loss of magic in general.

Thanks for any info.

 

[Voneth]

Kaptin Kantrip has the answer for you.

http://test.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13668

 

[Abraxas]

Thanks for the link, I've read that before and have a copy of it. However it really doesn't go into much detail.

I guess I looking for info more along the line of how did they affect climactic battles. If the players conserve their action dice until they reach a major campaign baddie - especially heavy hitters who use them to confirm a critical - it could severly alter the course of an adventure.

Or, with respect to spellcasters and their targets - the action dice can offset the weak saves of the different classes. Granted the players have a limited number of dice to use in this fashion. In a low magic campaign (such as I'm planning) they wouldn't be attacked with spells that often which would(could) reduce the reliability of magic even more than I currently intend.

 

[Voneth]

Then please take the time to read the whole thread.

Radiating Gnome said:

"I tried adding action dice to one of my regular D&D gamne sessions -- I love the idea of action dice, but in practice they didn't work very well for our group.

To begin with, the dwarven axe machine has invested a great deal of his character development into maximizing his chance to inflict critical hits. Having to spend action dice to convert a threat to a critical really gelded his character, and it just wasn't really very fair to him.

Overall, I found that it was very hard to have any of the characters in the game suffer the effects of a spell, as then tended to save their dice for saving throws.

BUT that's something you can work with much better. I think that if you're going to add action dice to SW or D&D or any other system, you need to at the very least do it right from the beginning. I would not add it to an existing game, because it can have dramatic effects on character development.

Other than that, it should be an easy transition to make. You might want to just skip the idea of each class having one area in which they excell with action dice -- that might get to be a little too much. Or just use some common sense with each class, using the Spycraft classes as a guide, to assign the area in which each class can roll extra action dice."

Kaptain_Kantrip said that his own rules had this result:

" My group has been using the above Action Dice version in D&D for the past month or so and found them to be great fun. I recommend implementing them into any RPG... I certainly will."

And I added this:

"I would assume that your NPCs would end up making their saves as well thanks to the DM's action dice. There is also an optional rule where a player can use a roll to affect his spell DC, DMG p. 96.

In the end, I would suggest a GM look into introducing Backgrounds into a game before kicking off with action dice."

 

[Abraxas]

I did read the whole thread ,
I even saved a copy of it,
and I thanked you last time for posting a link to it.

However

The info in that thread is fairly generic and limited in detail.

In one group, the dwarf was upset because of the effects on criticals (although from the text I'm not sure if the player was upset because others were able to make crits more often using action dice or he was "required" to use action dice to confirm a crit - I assume it was the former). In this same group spell effects were minimized.

KK - They worked great. He doesn't say why they worked great. When Spycraft first arrived on the scene he was very vocal about how much he liked it - so a statement like "They work great" could easily be bias (doesn't necessarily have to be, but it could be). So a little description on why he thought the way he did would be helpful.

And your assumptions about NPCs making their saves is the same as my own, I was curious as to how this affected the behavior of those that play spellcasters. Did the players of spellcasters choose more feats relating to increasing save DCs as opposed to other general feats? Did they switch to more all or half spells instead of the all or nothing spells. Did they switch to buffing/ summoning and defense spells instead of direct effect spells. Did they play fewer spellcasters.

There are other areas of play that could be drastically affected.

For example Spot checks ..... Did the DM start asking for more random spot checks so players wouldn't immediately burn action dice to avoid an ambush.

I just want more detail from those that have actually used action dice in 3E. If they don't want to give it, fine

 

[Voneth]

On the dwarf, the impression I got was that it made the other classes more combat capable and that he was less in the spotlight as the combat machine

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Argh! I've been dissed!

I go into as much detail as Spycraft's core rules does, IMO.

"They work great" means we've never had any problems arise from implementing them.

We do not allow anyone to use action dice to affect critical hits. If you give or take a critical, you get what's coming to you. Other than that, anything goes.

What exactly do you need clarified? I'll do my best to answer specific questions.

 

[wolfpunk]

The rule I implemented for using dice for criticals was a bit different. Characters recieve action dice as normal. Characters who take feats, or have magic items that directly relate to an action specifically by action dice are granted bonus action dice. Hmm that sounds confusing, okay here is an example.

A character has a Keen longsword. Keen now has been modified by me to do two things, a) double the threat range of a weapon, and b) grants 2 additional action dice that may be used specifically to activate critical hits. So a character with a Keen longsword will be able to activate two more criticals then could his teammates.

I did the same thing with Improved Critical, it now grants an additional 2 action dice that may only be used to activate critical hits.

So a fighter designed to inflict critical hits, will actually have several more dice just for that purpose. I feel that it is balanced, and keeps the flavor of some types of characters distinct in ability.

 

[Abraxas]

wolfpunk - I think your crit rule is interesting and I may use it - I plan to run a low magic campaign and this may offset the lack of magic when fighting creatures with DR. Of course it could make them too easy. I'll have to think on it a bit more.

Originally posted by Kaptain_Kantrip

Argh! I've been dissed!

So sorry, no dis intended
In fact your fab raves on Spycraft (plus a quick peruse at my FLGS) convinced me to pick up this book. The only reason I'm not playing Spycraft now is my local gaming group isn't much into espionage games

As for specific questions - here are a few.

1) In addition to what you listed in the previous thread, did you allow action dice to increase the save DC of spells?

2) Did you notice any specific changes in the feat selection of players of spellcasters? It would seem action dice would make save DC boosting feats much more attractive to spellcasting types.

3) Did you see a reduction in the number of spellcasters played?

4) Did you see an increase in fighters using heavy armors vs lightly armored dextrous fighters? Right now I see a fairly balanced mix of these types.

5) Did you see any CR or ECL increases/decreases due to the effects of action dice?

6) In a general way how did the use of action dice change the "feel" of the game? Were there any general trends that changed the way you ran the game?

(I know the last one is rather broad, but with out being able to actually talk with you its hard to put all the general concerns/questions I have into text )

TIA

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Questions and Answers with Abraxas and the Kap'n
_________________________________________

ABRAXAS: In addition to what you listed in the previous thread, did you allow action dice to increase the save DC of spells?

Kaptain: NO. THE DC BY ITSELF IS NOT A d20 ROLL (ONLY THE SAVE YOU ROLL AGAINST IT), SO ADDING DICE TO THE DC IS NOT ALLOWED.

ABRAXAS: Did you notice any specific changes in the feat selection of players of spellcasters?

Kaptain: NO. THEY ALWAYS GET AT LEAST ONE SPELL FOCUS FEAT ANYWAY.

ABRAXAS: Did you see a reduction in the number of spellcasters played?

Kaptain: NO.

ABRAXAS: Did you see an increase in fighters using heavy armors vs lightly armored dextrous fighters?

Kaptain: NO. WE ALMOST ALWAYS ONLY SEE FIGHTERS WITH DECENT DEX IN MEDIUM ARMOR, NOT LIGHT OR HEAVY ARMOR.

ABRAXAS: Did you see any CR or ECL increases/decreases due to the effects of action dice?

Kaptain: NOT REALLY. PLAYERS WERE ONLY SLIGHTLY MORE LIKELY TO TRY EXPERIMENTAL/RISKY STRATEGIES IF THEY HAD ACTION DICE LEFT. ACTION DICE WERE THE ONLY THINGS THAT SAVED SEVERAL PLAYERS FROM DYING OR BEING TURNED INTO FISH, HOWEVER.

6) In a general way how did the use of action dice change the "feel" of the game? Were there any general trends that changed the way you ran the game?

(I know the last one is rather broad, but with out being able to actually talk with you its hard to put all the general concerns/questions I have into text )

ACTION DICE ADDED TO THE TENSION AND EXCITEMENT, BECAUSE THEY ARE PRECIOUS FEW AND LIMITED. IF A PLAYER ROLLED REALLY BAD, THEY MIGHT HAVE TO BURN ALL THEIR ACTION DICE JUST ON TRYING TO AVOID ONE FAILED SAVE, LOL. I KNOW, BECAUSE THIS HAPPENED TO MY CHARACTER.
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--END Q&A--