SRD Additions

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

Yes, but the CRs in your article match neither the Epic Level Handbook's CRs nor (from what we've seen) the ECLs from Savage Species.

Irrelevant though.

Using the ECL table in the article you can easily work out any Monster or Characters ECL. From that you can easily apply the result to the CR table. Its that simple.

My method is constant, theirs (on occasion*) seems arbitrary.

*Solars; lower Age Category Dragons are the notable mistakes below CR20 in the Monster Manual. I don't have the ELH yet so I can't comment on those beyond the playtest doc. - which I believe has a few wildly different CRs from the final book?

The first problem is that they don't address the reduced power increase as levels ascend.
ie. They maintain that 1 character level = +1 CR.

Which is fine below CR20. But will start to cause a lot of problems as you ascend.

 

[Umbran]

Well I could.

You might want to read my Challenge Ratings article in Asgard #6.

I just did. And I'm sorry to say that I don't agree with some of the premises you use. They may work well in your own high-level system, but I don't think they apply generally. However, I don't want to hijack the thread.

As for Mr. Mona being privy to the ELH rules - perhaps. However, releasing material based upon the ELH before the ELH is available would be Bad Form.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Lady Dragon!

The problem with High(Epic) campaigns is not that they can't be a great experience its that most DM's don't know how to do it properly(and I certainly count myself among that number).In a low level campaign all a DM has to do is think up a mystery for the players to solve and/or stock up a dungeon they designed on graph paper.But in high and epic level campaign the players have access to spells that make overcoming low-level obsticles easy.Divination spells to solve the mystery,Travel-related spells to get right to the main villian thus skipping the rest of the dungeon/adventure.Many DM then try to take those abilities away from the players then with certain artificial obsticles thus making it a low level adventure with high(epic) level monsters.So after a few tries the group decides why bother and starts over with new characters.

Agreed!

I think the greatest thing that could happen for Epic level play would if WoTC brought back Planescape (Or something like it)To be an Epic Playground so to speak.But it would need more than just the inner and outer planes that we are used to but alterante realities such as that Nightmare realm that is referenced in the ELH or a more detailed City of Union.

Thats what I (and I know a lot of others) wanted from Planescape from the beginning.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Umbran mate!

I just did. And I'm sorry to say that I don't agree with some of the premises you use. They may work well in your own high-level system, but I don't think they apply generally. However, I don't want to hijack the thread.

Well I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on the matter!? Feel free to email me at your leisure mate.

As for Mr. Mona being privy to the ELH rules - perhaps. However, releasing material based upon the ELH before the ELH is available would be Bad Form.

I wasn't asking him too. What I was infering was that Erik Mona would be aware of the power levels of Epic Characters and Monsters and be able to design the Demon Lords accordingly.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Using the ECL table in the article you can easily work out any Monster or Characters ECL. From that you can easily apply the result to the CR table. Its that simple.

Yes, but your method assumes a different power curve than presented in the ELH.

My method is constant, theirs (on occasion*) seems arbitrary.

I think it's an art, not a science. Either way, what's important is that the CRs match the power level of 4 characters of the appropriate level.

The first problem is that they don't address the reduced power increase as levels ascend.
ie. They maintain that 1 character level = +1 CR.

Which is fine below CR20. But will start to cause a lot of problems as you ascend.

This is not really the case with the ELH. The power of Epic Feats is such that the power level is ramped *up*, not down. Again, you assume your own system's power level, but most will use the ELH's.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Yes, but your method assumes a different power curve than presented in the ELH.

Not so much an assumption as a fact.

eg. The difference between 1st-level and 5th-level is much wider than the difference between 31st-level and 35th-level, and the difference between 101st and 105th-level is negligable!

I think it's an art, not a science.

I agree CR is never going to be perfect. But considering familiarity of components I see no reason why determining CR can't be done logically.

Either way, what's important is that the CRs match the power level of 4 characters of the appropriate level.

Exactly. But your never going to get that in Epic Campaigns using the official method.

eg. x4 46th-level characters are not (roughly) equal to a 50th-level character. Likewise a 60th-level character is not equal to x16 52nd-level characters!

This is not really the case with the ELH. The power of Epic Feats is such that the power level is ramped *up*, not down.

Obviously power increases - but the benefit of each individual level is reduced the higher you ascend.

The abilities introduced with Epic Feats are relatively consistent to extrapolating PHB feats anyway.

Again, you assume your own system's power level, but most will use the ELH's.

True. Though I am only trying to help people avoid the pitfalls presented in the official rules. What they do after that is their own business.

 

[Grazzt]

Just to keep the hijack going a bit longer...anyone know what system they used to assign the CRs in the ELH? Obviously they didnt use the same one as presented in Dragon 276 because it doesnt work (I tried it.)

 

[CRGreathouse]

Just to keep the hijack going a bit longer...anyone know what system they used to assign the CRs in the ELH? Obviously they didnt use the same one as presented in Dragon 276 because it doesnt work (I tried it.)

You don't mean the CR Guesstimator, do you?

It's just a starting point - and a bad one at that. I made a more complicated (and much more accurate) CR Estimator at http://mwtools.thyle.net/race_gen.html.

Assigning CRs is an art.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Not so much an assumption as a fact.

eg. The difference between 1st-level and 5th-level is much wider than the difference between 31st-level and 35th-level, and the difference between 101st and 105th-level is negligable!

Obviously power increases - but the benefit of each individual level is reduced the higher you ascend.

These are *your* assumptions, and are not really represented in the ELH rules - and only vaguely supported in the core rules. The biggest jump in power for a sorcerer is not level 1 to level 2 (as your statement would suggest), but 5th level to 6th. In fact, 17th to 18th is a larger power difference for sorcerers than 1st to 2nd!

One of the largest jumps, though, promises to be 20th to 21st, or perhaps 23rd to 24th.

eg. x4 46th-level characters are not (roughly) equal to a 50th-level character. Likewise a 60th-level character is not equal to x16 52nd-level characters!

That's why I said that the final judge for CR should be a challenging encounter for 4 PCs of that level, not other arbitrary stats.

 

[Grazzt]

You don't mean the CR Guesstimator, do you?

Yeppers that is the one.

It's just a starting point - and a bad one at that. I made a more complicated (and much more accurate) CR Estimator at http://mwtools.thyle.net/race_gen.html.

Assigning CRs is an art. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree- assigning CRs is an art. I havent seen your CR Estimator, but I'll check it out.