SRD Additions

[Upper_Krust]

Hello!

Yes, but the power level of what you call ECL 34-111 is no different from the power level of what I call CR 27-43. There's no fundamental difference there.

Not exactly.

Since what I call ECL 34-111 represents 34th-111th-level characters.

Whereas to you CR27-43 means levels 27th-43rd.

 

[tjasamcarl]

Pathetic...

I don't think anyone who read through the combined posts of our last run in would say you put any type of 'smackdown' on me. You were questioning Wotc's marketing descisions and it was clear you had NO economic sense whatsoever...well, we won't get into that.

I believed my last post conveyed quite clearly the deficiencies in not only your system, but the entire paradigm you were working under when you created it. You took what was always suppossed to be an 'eyeball' and, assuming it to be gospel, proceeded to pronounce it a failure. I freely admit that looking at the derived EL is not always enough, but the DMG makes it very clear that a given monster was created with the intent of challenging the min/maxed four 'core' classes in mind.

You made the assumption which Wotc balanced class levels to the best of their ability. Unfortunatly, you then went on to make the conclude that basing a system off of the more dubious assumption that they succeeded fully. And don't get me started on the ECL=CR thing. You took a fundemental misunderstanding of how the two are related and then just, through wishful thinking, related the two. And the best defense you could come up with was that class wealth would balance any given 'monster' into a workable character...dah

You had it right near the end, two different measures would be needed to the determine CR and Class level...which basically bring full validity to my assertion that not all class combinations are equal....

Sorry...start playtesting and LEARN the actual mechanics or stop...you are embarrasing yourself...

 

[Blacksad]

Re: Pathetic...

And the best defense you could come up with was that class wealth would balance any given 'monster' into a workable character...dah

That was my own reasoning on why you have such a big difference between ECL for PC and CR for monster, UK never said that.

edit: and that's only part of the problem IMO

 

[Grazzt]

"Can't we all just get along?"

 

[Blacksad]

"Can't we all just get along?"

If my thrall ability worked, sure no problem!

Sorry if I seemed rude in any of my post.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Once more unto the breach...

Hello again tjasamcarl!

I don't think anyone who read through the combined posts of our last run in would say you put any type of 'smackdown' on me.

Willful ignorance of the facts does seem to be your M.O.

Are you kidding!? I tucked you in early without milk; cookies or a bedtime story!

Admittedly most of the 'damage' was self-inflicted. But you only have yourself to blame mate!

You misrepresent practically everything I say, you put words in my mouth, make personal attacks, you haven't addressed a single point...etc.

You were questioning Wotc's marketing descisions

What exactly (feel free to quote me) did I say that led you to this conclusion?

As far as I can tell you haven't paid any attention to this whole discussion (?) - you just like to instigate feeble ad hominem attacks without making any relevant points!?

and it was clear you had NO economic sense whatsoever

Based on what? Where did this pearl of wisdom spring from?

Quote me!

...well, we won't get into that.

Obviously not, since to 'get into it' there would need to be something 'there' in the first place!

Meaning you would have to make a tangible point.

I believed my last post conveyed quite clearly the deficiencies in not only your system,

Thats the most ludicrous thing you have said to date!

You didn't address one single issue! You made a number of personal attacks on me and an appeal to authority where you stated that an article has less merit because its in Asgard, regardless of its content!

but the entire paradigm you were working under when you created it.

You took what was always suppossed to be an 'eyeball' and, assuming it to be gospel,

Actually I took what was supposed to be an 'eyeball' and extrapolated it based on the existing 'constants' of the Core Rules.

proceeded to pronounce it a failure.

...and proceeded to expose flaws in its design when used in conjunction with 'Epic Levels'. Subsequently I backed all this up with relevant facts* that proved its inadequacies in this area.

*That you blissfully ignore.

I freely admit that looking at the derived EL is not always enough, but the DMG makes it very clear that a given monster was created with the intent of challenging the min/maxed four 'core' classes in mind.

Red herring comment.

You made the assumption which Wotc balanced class levels to the best of their ability.

Well they did say many times thats what they were doing!

Unfortunatly, you then went on to make the conclude that basing a system off of the more dubious assumption that they succeeded fully.

Whether they succeeded or not; it was the only logical factor to work upon.

Either you assume the levelling process (upon which the framework of Challenge Ratings/Experience Points stems) is balanced; and work from there - or you don't; in which case a large swathe of the Core Rulebooks becomes irrelevant.

And don't get me started on the ECL=CR thing.

Aw come on - please get started on it! Pretty please!?

You took a fundemental misunderstanding of how the two are related and then just, through wishful thinking, related the two.

Is a 9th-level Human Rogue not ECL 9 then, nor CR 9 then!?

And the best defense you could come up with was that class wealth would balance any given 'monster' into a workable character...dah

I'm pretty sure I said nothing of the kind!

But feel free to try and mislead opinion further by putting more words in my mouth mate!

You had it right near the end, two different measures would be needed to the determine CR and Class level...which basically bring full validity to my assertion that not all class combinations are equal....

This particular point was addressing the difference between Monsters Races used as PCs and NPCs. Do try to keep up.

It had virtually nothing to do with my overarching structure and negligable effect on my CR system.

start playtesting and LEARN the actual mechanics or stop...

...or you'll make yet another personal attack on me.

So far you have been unable to point out a single flaw in my mechanics, or reasoning. So I fail to see how you can make such a statement.

you are embarrasing yourself...

I LOVE YOU!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Scott mate!

"Can't we all just get along?"

I haven't had this much fun since watching Tjasamcarl arguing with Psion last week!

 

[Morrus]

Feel free to debate the topic at hand, but take the personal attacks elsewhere, please, folks. I don't want to have to close this thread because it's a cool discussion.

 

[Nightfall]

I think you mean cruel Morrus.

But yes I'm very interested to see if any one can answer this question. I doubt though the bean counters want to lose their "crunchy". *sighs* Bean counters serve the same fates as Hrinnruk and Kadum. Cut out their hearts, cut off their head and then slice them up into itty bitty pieces!

 

[jmucchiello]

Not to throw fire onto this but.....

Secondly, Classes are balanced. According to the Core Rules a 19th-level Rogue is equal to a 10th-level Paladin/9th-level Cleric who is equal to a 17th-level Sorceror Lich.

I would argue that the flaw with all of these systems is that this assumption is incorrect. And no matter how hard one might wish it were true, it isn't. Is a 10th-level Wizard/10th-level Cleric equivalent to a 20th-level Wizard or a 20th-level Cleric? I doubt it. He may have access to almost any 5th-level or lower spell, but the 20th-level character has access to 9th leve spells. It is no contest. The 10/10 wizard/cleric probably losses to a 16th level Wizard in an average combat.

I think it's easier to just accept the fact that monster characters require ad hoc balance chosen by the DM just like it did in every other edition of D&D and maybe we can get it right when 4th ed comes out in (based on the standard schedule) 9-10 years.