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D&D 4E SRD5 Yet another chance to clone 4e?

D'karr

Adventurer
Also, [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION]: The name of a mechanic may actually be copyrightable. It's a bit of a legal grey area, as I understand it (standard disclaimer, IANAL, etc.) Words like "card" and "dice," which refer to implements, cannot be copyrighted. And certain terms that have been in use by too many other companies (like "HP," "experience," "level," etc.) can't either. But something pretty specific, e.g. "Healing Surge," may be copyrightable...and given the toeing-the-legal-limits nature of most "cloning" projects, it's usually considered unwise to do anything that even might be a problem.

Having seen discussions with you on multiple topics involving 4e I have respect for your opinion. I don't mean to sound rude or disrespectful so please forgive me if it sounds that way. Even though what you say might be in some specific context applicable, it does not invalidate what I had already said, "game mechanics are not copyrightable". Since you are not a lawyer, I'd rather take my legal advice from an actual copyright lawyer. There might be an entire rabbit hole of exceptions, and adjunct discussions dealing with the subject, but the basic premise still stands. Legal discussions in internet forums seem to always devolve to the "legality" or "ethicality" of something with no real legal background except what someone opines about the subject or has read in an internet forum.

I will leave it at this. I prefer not to get into legal arguments about things that my lawyer is actually better suited to handle. The discussion would be pointless since neither you nor I are lawyers, but the weight of my lawyer's actual legal advice has much more weight than opinions on the internet. Anyone taking legal advice from an internet forum is a fool that deserves whatever they get since you really get what you paid for. The adage of "opinions" is very apt to these type of discussions. I don't take my car to be repaired by my dentist, and I don't go looking for legal advice on internet forums.

Having said all that, take it as a definite that I still respect your opinions and insight into many things dealing with gaming and 4e in particular. In many threads that I've seen your postings I usually find myself agreeing with your opinions as they are well reasoned and insightful.

Thanks.
 

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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Having seen discussions with you on multiple topics involving 4e I have respect for your opinion. I don't mean to sound rude or disrespectful so please forgive me if it sounds that way. Even though what you say might be in some specific context applicable, it does not invalidate what I had already said, "game mechanics are not copyrightable". Since you are not a lawyer, I'd rather take my legal advice from an actual copyright lawyer. There might be an entire rabbit hole of exceptions, and adjunct discussions dealing with the subject, but the basic premise still stands. Legal discussions in internet forums seem to always devolve to the "legality" or "ethicality" of something with no real legal background except what someone opines about the subject or has read in an internet forum.

I will leave it at this. I prefer not to get into legal arguments about things that my lawyer is actually better suited to handle. The discussion would be pointless since neither you nor I are lawyers, but the weight of my lawyer's actual legal advice has much more weight than opinions on the internet. Anyone taking legal advice from an internet forum is a fool that deserves whatever they get since you really get what you paid for. The adage of "opinions" is very apt to these type of discussions. I don't take my car to be repaired by my dentist, and I don't go looking for legal advice on internet forums.

Having said all that, take it as a definite that I still respect your opinions and insight into many things dealing with gaming and 4e in particular. In many threads that I've seen your postings I usually find myself agreeing with your opinions as they are well reasoned and insightful.

Thanks.

Actually, I don't think anybody but the guy from Kingdom of Kalamar can give you those answers. I don't think there is an IP attorney anywhere who specializes on RPGs. So, the way to proceed is to avoid copying at all costs.
 

D'karr

Adventurer
Actually, I don't think anybody but the guy from Kingdom of Kalamar can give you those answers. I don't think there is an IP attorney anywhere who specializes on RPGs. So, the way to proceed is to avoid copying at all costs.

Sure that would be a way to go. Then again another way to go is to know what you can do when you start and stay within those boundaries. RPG's are not some sort of super secret special type of copyrighted material different from anything else. But you can do as you say, nobody is stopping you from doing that.
 

Actually, I don't think anybody but the guy from Kingdom of Kalamar can give you those answers. I don't think there is an IP attorney anywhere who specializes on RPGs. So, the way to proceed is to avoid copying at all costs.

I believe OSRIC was put together by an IP lawyer being careful when they reverse engineered 1e.
 


MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Sure that would be a way to go. Then again another way to go is to know what you can do when you start and stay within those boundaries. RPG's are not some sort of super secret special type of copyrighted material different from anything else. But you can do as you say, nobody is stopping you from doing that.

No lawyer can tell you that with an RPG. Or if they could, it would be thousands of rules long. They can at best tell you if something you have written is infringing. And they will need to comb every single 4e book to help with it.
 


D'karr

Adventurer
No lawyer can tell you that with an RPG. Or if they could, it would be thousands of rules long. They can at best tell you if something you have written is infringing. And they will need to comb every single 4e book to help with it.

I'm totally OK with agreeing to disagree and leaving it at that.
 



MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I'm not sure there is anything to be amazed about. RPGs have an incredibly broad base, D&D in particular broader than most. IP lawyers play games too.

I don't know, but for me D&D is more magical each day.
 

Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
I have always seen the need to have online tools as a problem of 4e. If the game is so complex that it needs a computer program to set up your character - well, for me that is sign of a problem.(snip)

Need? Not really. Nice to have? Absolutely.

And once you've gotten used to the tools it's hard to go back to the old way of doing things. It's a bit like finding information via Google instead of my high school and university experience of using cards in a library. It's simply a more efficient use of your time.
 

MoutonRustique

Explorer
Need? Not really. Nice to have? Absolutely.

And once you've gotten used to the tools it's hard to go back to the old way of doing things. It's a bit like finding information via Google instead of my high school and university experience of using cards in a library. It's simply a more efficient use of your time.
Bwahahahahahahah... *cough* *cough* HAHahahahahahaha!

I remember that time - wow, those were the "bad old days" indeed! Although... the "depth" of research required was often less than (serious and committed) teachers now demand. Similar to open-book-exams in that way.

But still, I'm laughing at you so hard (also, at myself, btw :p) - man... it's hard to believe that was only... well 2 decades ago - crap! I'm OLD!

I hate you now... *sulk*
 

Raith5

Adventurer
Need? Not really. Nice to have? Absolutely.

And once you've gotten used to the tools it's hard to go back to the old way of doing things. It's a bit like finding information via Google instead of my high school and university experience of using cards in a library. It's simply a more efficient use of your time.


I should have prefaced this by saying that I play 4e and I dont use the online tools! We are currently 30th level so our character sheets are extremely complicated - the fighter in the party uses a two sided A3 sheet and mine is in danger of requiring a microfiche reader to read.

What I meant to suggest is that I think 4e is touch too complicated in perception (and a little bit in practice) but I think the main bits of 4e I love could be ported into the much simpler chasiss of 5e.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
And once you've gotten used to the tools it's hard to go back to the old way of doing things.
True. Unfortunately, after my character reached Paragon Tier, due to my chosen Feats, the Character Builder no longer calculated my bonuses correctly*. So, once you have to recalculate your bonuses manually, anyway, the advantages of using it start to fade rather quickly.

*: I'm playing a Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorcerer Ninefold Master, and there's several feats and class abilities that only apply if a power's damage type matches (one of) your breath weapon's. Unfortunately, while the Paragon Path's Powers always match your breath weapon's type, the Builder just says 'damage type varies', and doesn't apply the bonuses.
 

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