Stacking Tomes and Manuals

[Hypersmurf]

So, if you get a restoration cast on you and gain back 2 of your permanently drained Int points the negation of the inherent bonuses is over and you would actually gain back 4 points of Int?

What??

Nobody's negating inherent bonuses. You're taking ability damage.

If you have six points of ability damage, then you can restore six points.

Your inherent bonus never changes through ability damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Albereth]

What??

Nobody's negating inherent bonuses. You're taking ability damage.

If you have six points of ability damage, then you can restore six points.

Your inherent bonus never changes through ability damage.

-Hyp.

First off, let me make it clear that I completely understand what you are saying and how it works but I am just playing Devil's Advocate on this one

Okay, from my previous question it was ruled that if you get permanently drained of all your initial and level gained Int that you would still be standing if you have an inherent bonus. Therefore, the only way to knock this person unconsious is to knock out the Inherent bonuses also. Can this be done by a creature that drains ability scores permanently or can you only lose Intelligence to your starting + level gained point?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Okay, from my previous question it was ruled that if you get permanently drained of all your initial and level gained Int that you would still be standing if you have an inherent bonus. Therefore, the only way to knock this person unconsious is to knock out the Inherent bonuses also. Can this be done by a creature that drains ability scores permanently or can you only lose Intelligence to your starting + level gained point?

You can have a penalty greater than your initial score, yes. The inherent bonus still isn't drained away...

 

[Albereth]

You can have a penalty greater than your initial score, yes. The inherent bonus still isn't drained away...

Okay, as things slowly sink in, what is happening is actually you are being drained to -14 Int even though your Int is actually only 12. The bonus is still there but only brings you back to 0 so you are still unconcious and having just 1 point restored would be enough to have the Inherent bring you back to +1 and concious again.

Mucho gracias CRG things are much clearer now.

 

[Crothian]

How many people have actually devoted the resources to make these books? It seems to me it really isn't worth the cost in xp and in gp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

How many people have actually devoted the resources to make these books? It seems to me it really isn't worth the cost in xp and in gp.

I haven't played in a campaign at that level, but I can see why someone would make any of them except the +1 version. (That one eludes me.)

But if someone can only cast one 9th level spell in a day, they can never get more than a +1 inherent bonus to an attribute, except by making multiple scrolls of Wish... or making one of these books.

And while I can't be bothered going into the maths, I can at least glance at the market value and see that 4 scrolls of Wish are slightly more expensive than a +4 Tome.

-Hyp.

 

[FANGO]

Whoa...

Okay, people seem to baking this a little too far ;-)

Here's how I think it ought to be....

First of all, it is stated clearly that inherent bonuses cap at +5, so you don't need to worry about someone stacking up on a +2, a +4, and a +1 and ending up with a +7 bonus. Since the cap is there regardless, and the progression in the cost of the books/wish spells/scrolls/whatever is linear, I see no reason not to let them stack (and this is how we do it in my group, too) up to a max of +5. Also, the bonus granted is only partially magical, since it requires a certain amount of study and such...so I figure that the bonus should be noted as an increase in the base stat (ex: I use the 'temporary score' section to note pluses from items such as headbands of intellect, and I simply add the inherent bonus onto the 'ability score' section of the character sheet, since it's not really actively being caused by any magic item or anything). So poison and such should be able to take those points away, I would say (although I'm not sure about other magic items, now that it's been brought up....regardless, we've never needed to worry about that in my group, and nobody has ever really had to endure so much ability damage as to disable them).

Anyway, to recap...
bonuses should stack, up to +5
bonuses from the books and such are less magical (in that they are permanent and not actively caused by items) than other magical stat gains, and as such should be treated a little differently (esp. since they cost FIVE THOUSAND exp per +1...xp costs are nasty!)

 

[rhammer2]

Re: Whoa...

This is what I have been thinking of doing, not that any of my players have ever even seen a stat bonus tome.

Okay, people seem to baking this a little too far ;-)

Here's how I think it ought to be....

First of all, it is stated clearly that inherent bonuses cap at +5, so you don't need to worry about someone stacking up on a +2, a +4, and a +1 and ending up with a +7 bonus. Since the cap is there regardless, and the progression in the cost of the books/wish spells/scrolls/whatever is linear, I see no reason not to let them stack (and this is how we do it in my group, too) up to a max of +5. Also, the bonus granted is only partially magical, since it requires a certain amount of study and such...so I figure that the bonus should be noted as an increase in the base stat (ex: I use the 'temporary score' section to note pluses from items such as headbands of intellect, and I simply add the inherent bonus onto the 'ability score' section of the character sheet, since it's not really actively being caused by any magic item or anything). So poison and such should be able to take those points away, I would say (although I'm not sure about other magic items, now that it's been brought up....regardless, we've never needed to worry about that in my group, and nobody has ever really had to endure so much ability damage as to disable them).

Anyway, to recap...
bonuses should stack, up to +5
bonuses from the books and such are less magical (in that they are permanent and not actively caused by items) than other magical stat gains, and as such should be treated a little differently (esp. since they cost FIVE THOUSAND exp per +1...xp costs are nasty!)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Whoa...

Anyway, to recap...
bonuses should stack, up to +5

As long as you're aware that it's a House Rule, no problem

bonuses from the books and such are less magical (in that they are permanent and not actively caused by items) than other magical stat gains, and as such should be treated a little differently (esp. since they cost FIVE THOUSAND exp per +1...xp costs are nasty!)

What do you mean by "treated differently"? And what do you mean by "take those points away"?

Nothing ever really "takes points away". Even if you take 4 points of permanent ability damage from an undead, for example, you still need to remember that it was four points, because if you get hit with a Greater Restoration spell ten years later, they come back.

The only exception, possibly, is if a first level character is Raised and loses a point of Constitution. I think that's gone forever.

Once you have a +3 inherent bonus, it's always there. Because (by the rules) they don't stack, you need to know that it's +3, so you know when it caps. (Even with your stacking House Rule, you still need to keep track so you know when to cap it.)

-Hyp.

 

[CRGreathouse]

This is what I have been thinking of doing, not that any of my players have ever even seen a stat bonus tome.

There really aren't any balance issues that I see, so it would make a good house rule.