Staff Combat

[Ferret]

What about when you thrust with it? The RL "fighting sytem" is so malleable it is hard to make a proper adjustment for the rigid D&D system.

 

[Dogbrain]

Dogbrain, I also meant to ask you using a greatsword to grapple... how on earth does that work? I'm no history buff, but I just can't see that. Please enlighten me

The Germans seem to have perfected Schwertwringeln. Essentially, it's remarkably similar to the grappling and wrestling one can do with a short staff--use it to extend leverage or get two-handed leverage on somebody. If you can get a copy of the appropriate illustrations from Ringeck (I don't, at the moment), you can see some of the old German techniques.

 

[CombatWombat51]

What about when you thrust with it? The RL "fighting sytem" is so malleable it is hard to make a proper adjustment for the rigid D&D system.

What about it? When you thrust with it, you deal 1d6 bludgeonig damage, crit on a 20, and deal x2 damage if you crit. Like how a sword works. I don't mean to be a smart ass, but what do you think the difference should be for thrusting?

 

[CombatWombat51]

The Germans seem to have perfected Schwertwringeln. Essentially, it's remarkably similar to the grappling and wrestling one can do with a short staff--use it to extend leverage or get two-handed leverage on somebody. If you can get a copy of the appropriate illustrations from Ringeck (I don't, at the moment), you can see some of the old German techniques.

I did a Google image search for both Schwertwringeln and Ringneck. Schwertwringeln didn't turn up anything, and Ringneck turned up a book of guys beating each other up with big swords with a ton of pictures. I looked at them all, and there some pictures of one guy on the ground, but that was after the first guy apparently hit him really hard with his big sword, or the first guy completely dropped his sword, then pulled or pushed on the bad guy. No sword involved.

Ah, there is one picture called "Three Wrestlings". But the technique is apparently stabbing up into the bad guy's crotch , and then dropping your sword. Then, you grab his sword arm with your left arm, pull his arm down, and push/strike him with your right forearm/elbow. I assume the bad guy is supposed to fall over.

Anyhow, none of that looked like grappling with a greatsword to me. Got any other sources? Or even a decent explanation you could write? Unfortunately, I've got no idea how one grapples with a short staff, either. Well, assuming by "short staff" you mean something 4 or 5 feet long. I know about grappling with an escrima, or a stick about 2 feet long, but that's not even the same ballpark.

 

[AeroDm]

Has anyone referenced teh fighting style in Complete Warrior? I think that style is decidedly tasteless and fairly ill-conceived... but it does the trick.

 

[Krieg]

For the Staff doubters, a quote from Terry Brown's book "English Martial Arts":

"In the year 1625 England and Spain were at war and (Richard) Peeke was serving in an English naval squadron, under the command of the Earl of Essex, which was attacking a Spanish naval stronghold. After heavy and accurate bombardment the English captured the fortress, whereupon, they sent forces ashore to carry the attack inland. In the wake of the English landings sailors were sent ashore to forage for food. Richard Peeke, of Tavistock in Devon, was among them. Unwisely he foraged alone and paid the price for his mistake when he was attacked by a patrol of spanish musketers. After a furious fight, during which Peeke was wounded twice, he was captured and taken in chains to Cales ( Cadiz ). from there he was transfered to Xeres where he was put on trial. Present at his trial, which in reality was a miitary interrogation, were four Dukes, four Marquesses, and four Earls. After much questioning Peeke was asked if he thought that the Spanish soldiers present would prove such 'hennes' as the English when they landed in England the following yeare. "

"No" replied Peeke. "They would prove to be pullets or chickens."

Peeke's insolent reply brought forth an angry response from the Spaniards.

"Darst thou then ( quoth Duke Mdyna, with a brow half angry ) fight with one of these Spanish pullets."

Peeke replied that,

"...hee was unworthy the name of an Englishman, that should refuse to fight with one man of any nation whatsoever."

At this Peek's chains and shackles were removed and a space was created for him to fight a Spanish champion by the name of Tiago. Both were armed with Rapier and Poinard. The ensuing fight continued for some time before Peeke, using the guard of the poinard, trapped the blade of Tiago's rapier and simultaniously swept the Spaniards feet from under him. Peeke's rapier, held to the throat of senor Tiago brought forth the necessary capitulation. Spanish pride had been sorely wounded and it was demanded of Peeke whether he would be willing to fight another Spaniard. Peeke replied in the affirmative provided he was allowed to fight with.

"... mine owne countrrey weapon called the quarter - staffe."

Upon this remark the Spanish unscrewed the head from a Halbered to create a makeshift Quarterstaff. Armed with the weapon of his choice Peeke stood ready to meet his next challenger. However the Spanish were clearly no longer so confident in the prowess of their soldiers for, to Peeke's consternation, two Swordsmen stepped forward to fight him. Peeke sarcastically asked if more would like to join them. The Duke of Medyna asked how many he desired to fight.

"Any number under sixe". replied Peeke.

The Duke smiled scornfully and beckoned a third man to join the original two. Peeke and the rapier men warily traversed each other, all the while thrusting and warding, till finally Peeke gambled on an all out attack. His first blow a left one of his adversaries dead and his subsequent blows left the other two injured and disarmed. No doubt they also left the spanish seriously questioning the wisdom of their invasion plans. Peeke's feat so impressed his Spanish captors that they released him and granted him safe conduct to England.

You have to admire Richard Peeke's pluck!

In any non-lethal situation, a staff beats a sword all over the place. If I'm on the dojo (I study kendo) and I have a shinai or boken, I do NOT want to face someone with a staff. I will get my *** handed to me if that person has skill equivelent to mine.

No offense but I wouldn't want to go up against someone armed with a box of tissue paper armed with only a shinai!! lol

Anyhow, none of that looked like grappling with a greatsword to me. Got any other sources? Or even a decent explanation you could write? Unfortunately, I've got no idea how one grapples with a short staff, either. Well, assuming by "short staff" you mean something 4 or 5 feet long. I know about grappling with an escrima, or a stick about 2 feet long, but that's not even the same ballpark.

Try the Codex Wallerstein & Albrecht Duerer's Fechtbuch (ie Fighting Book).

Close fighting with the Longsword (historical NOT D&D definition) involved half-swording. Half swording essentially turns the sword into a short staff with some extra projections (ie the crossguard). When you are at extreme close ranges the ends of the staff/sword become very effective levers to use in catching/holding/directing your opponent's limbs & torso.

Finally let's not forget what Master George Silver had to say about the staff...

The short staff or half pike, forest bill, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of perfect length, have the advantage against the battle axe, the halberd, the black bill, the two handed sword, the sword and target, and are too hard for two swords and daggers, or two rapier and poniards with gauntlets, and for the long staff and morris pike.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Great stuff, Krieg... and as an Englishman myself I'm dead chuffed to hear of master Peeke's skill and chutzpah

Back in a D&D vein, a product has recently been brought to my attention that I can't find in the shops anywhere, but which might be of excellent value in this discussion and for anyone looking for additional weapon techniques. It is called Masters of Arms, by Second World simulations IIRC. It was a whole bunch of prestige classes which revolved around selectable feats - and it could easily be merely mined for feats. The classes included it in were

Axe Power Fighting Master
Bashing Master
Blinking Master
Bow Master
Cloak Fighting Master
Club Master
Crossbow Master
Dagger Master
Double-Pick Master
Dual Sai Master
Dual Swords Master
Flail Master
Glaive Master
Greatsword Master
Immovable Rod Master
Improvised Weapon Master
Kusarigama Master
Longspear Master
Net Master
Precision Sword Master
Quarterstaff Master
Ranseur Master
Rapier Master
Rod of Lordly Might Master
Scimitar Master
Scythe Master
Spiked Chain Master
Sword and Dagger Master
Sword and Shield Master
Telekinesis Master
Tensile Mercury Weapon Master
Three Piece Staff Master
Throwing Hammer Master
Trident Master
Two Axe Fighting Master


http://www.second-world-simulations.com/Masters of Arms.htm for more details, or for an ENworld review look here http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=currentprod&which=maoa

I just wish I could find a copy for myself...

 

[Krieg]

Back in a D&D vein, a product has recently been brought to my attention that I can't find in the shops anywhere, but which might be of excellent value in this discussion and for anyone looking for additional weapon techniques. It is called Masters of Arms, by Second World simulations IIRC. It was a whole bunch of prestige classes which revolved around selectable feats - and it could easily be merely mined for feats. .../snip/...
I just wish I could find a copy for myself...

Funny that you should mention that.

I just picked up a copy off of eBay for $3.99 (+shipping).

The gentleman who I purchased my copy from has another one up for auction...

Masters of Arms

There are at least 3 other copies up on eBay, all in the same price range.

(FWIW Second World Simulations put out the Second World Sourcebook which at the top of my "great but unkown" D20 list.)

 

[Plane Sailing]

Funny that you should mention that.

I just picked up a copy off of eBay for $3.99 (+shipping).

The gentleman who I purchased my copy from has another one up for auction...

You, sir, are a star!

I'll get on to that right away