Stagnation in RPG

[Storm Gorm]

What is RPG? Is it a game, or a play? Should it be more closely related to board games (like Warhammer maybe?), or to theatre?

I think both. But not at the same time damnit! This is what makes the culture of RPG stagnate. I enjoy both concepts, but feel that all brands of RPG, all books written and published, tend to hinder rather than help me make a good story - miniatures, battlemaps, character sheets, level progression, the class system - it does nothing but suppress what SHOULD be the goal of RPG.

I want not to reflect a strengths and weaknesses of a "character" with numbers, and then playing with these numbers, adding and subtracting some dice results - THIS has NOTHING to do with RPG. The very idea of ever having to do a "diplomacy check" is crazy, horribly destructive!

If only i could get some players that realized that playing AGAINST the storyteller is fighting the story, if only i could meet other people that got the idea of roleplaying being about roles and story, about playing out an act, not competing in a game. Please, say that im not alone!

BURN YOUR BOOKS! BURN'EM! THROW'EM ON THE FIRE!

Sorry, i tend to get a little dramatic and excited about this subject - but until now ive only vented it around my so-called friends (which i have dismissed for being gaming lowlifes) - now I want to hear your opinion.

With hope but little faith, Gorm

 

[Tsyr]

Go pick up a copy of the diceless roleplaying systems, or LARP systems, and "act" to your hearts content.

Or better yet, join a community theater program.

While there is no one right way to play RPGs, rules are almost a nessessity... For example, lets say I use your example of a diplomacy check. Now, if I had no rules for that, it ...

No, you know what? I had a post almost typed, but forget it. This arguement has been hashed out more than once on here. There are people that agree with you and people that dont. The two sides have never seen eye to eye yet, and I doubt this time will be any different.

 

[Wormwood]

I'd like to reply, but I'm too low a level to handle CR5.

 

[Gospog]

Well, this is sort of a D20 forum. You might want to look into something a little more rules-lite. A lot more rules-lite, actually.

May I reccomend Inspectres or octaNe, from Memento-Mori? www.memento-mori.com

I also hear that Savage Worlds is fun and rules-lite.

Oh, and in the Baron Munchaussen RPG, there is no dice rolling, and pretty much no rules. You may also enjoy that.

Good luck (and I hope your low life gaming friends don't read this forum!).

 

[drakhe]

Rules & Dice are needed but ...

I agree that the ultimate roleplaying should not need dice. Problem is: there are occasions where a decision has to be made between 2 or more aspects or options and even the best behaved groups that might lead to discusions that at the least will break the flow of the game (and ultimatly may create unwanted friction between participants). In those cases it's easier and faster to base the decision on a rule and a die-roll to interupt the flow of the game as little as possible.

I play in a ADnD campaign (ADnD core but loaded with houserules especialy combat which is based on ODM, FR setting). A lot of sessions we'll hardly touch our dice, generaly only in combat and then even generaly only for damage roll's. Currently there's even one guy who doesn't even have a character sheet. And it works... for us... . The main problem with this kind of play is that you need a group of people that can pull it off. You need to be able to trust each other and the DM unconditionaly. But if you can get such a group of people together the experience is that much more rewarding. I do play in other groups (ADnD, Warhammer, ArsMagica, Call of Cthulhu, ...) and DM DnD3e and Warhammer and have fun with every one of them but if I'd have to choose one of them I would prefer the Adnd-No-Dice group...

 

[Zappo]

On the chance of this being a troll, I'll just do a short answer.

I don't get the correlation between diplomacy checks and competing against the storyteller.

Anyway, competition between the players and the DM/storyteller/whatever is generally regarded as negative. It should be noted, though, that there are groups that happily play that way. So, on this field you're definitely not alone.

The forces are not that even on the topic of rules versus roles. That is, diplomacy checks. You seem to hold that rules (especially rules about social interactions) impede roleplaying. This is a position I understand, though I don't share it. I have good reasons for that; if it looks like the discussion stays constructive, I'll post them. There are many people who think as I do, and many who think as you do. So, you're not alone here, either.

Certainly, D&D isn't a system designed for you. There are many other systems.

 

[Wippit Guud]

In our group, we go even further than that. We're so intuned to the game, that we don't even talk! We just stare at each other and know exactly what's happening right down to the small mouse that just ran up my leg...


If there was no dice rolling, there'd be no element of chance. No chance means no risk. No risk means no sense of accomplishment. It's like playing Half-Life in 'god mode' - where's the fun if you can't be hurt and have unlimited ammunition? Do you want the +3 vorpal greatsword because the DM decided that you were going to get it in the story, and no other reason? Or would you prefer to get it because you had to overcome about 10 different obstacles and come close to death on more than one occasion? Give me choice B, I play for the adventure, I don't play to be an actor in the DM's script.

 

[drakhe]

But then again....

After reading all the posts I feel kinda bad... It's seems to me there are always those that cannot accept another opinion than their own. Contribute comments (for good or for bad) but don't just hit on a post(er) just because he/she sees things diferently.

As I stated in my previous post : I HAVE FUN WITH EVERY STYLE OF RPG
And would like to add that there's other forms of RPG : boardgame rpg (thinking about DnD Boardgame and WarhammerQuest) and computer RPG and I like them as well.

The point is: you have to find a group of people with the same mindset, a group that want's to enjoy an activity based on a set of agreements (that may or may not comprise rules) that everybody agree's to. I know people who's only pleasure in RPG's is min/maxing characters and finding way's to break the rules of any giving game. I have no problem with that whatsoever... I'd even call these the RPG hackers. If they enjoy it let them. If somebody prefers to "act" RPG's and can find a group of likeminded people, all the more fun to them!

 

[Tsyr]

If somebody prefers to "act" RPG's and can find a group of likeminded people, all the more fun to them!

Absolutely!

But it's a question of justified expectations.

For example, if I went to a board on, say, White Wolf's "Vampire" line, and said, "I love roleplaying! But I think vampires are silly! This game should be about a dune-esq space travel universe! I think something as silly as vampires is crazy, horribly destructive!", I think people would be justified in telling me that this game wasn't for me, and I should look up a game that was (IE, the Dune RPG, or Fading Suns, or Traveller, or GURPS: Space, or Dragonstar, or...)

Likewise, if someone comes to a board on a site devoted to a game that, while not uber-rules-heavy, is very much defined by it's (of times slightly quirky, at least to 'outsiders') rules, and proposes that rules-free playing is the best way to play, isn't it logical to suggest that perhaps rules-light, or LARP, or something, is more what they might be looking for?

 

[d20Dwarf]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mearls/

Mearls discusses the nature of RPGs a few entries down in his livejournal.

While I disagree with his assessment, it's an interesting read (along with the comments) for any philosophically inclined egghead gamers.