Stalker0's Alternate Core Skill Challenge System: FINAL VERSION 1.8!

[Gallows]

Bold Recovery

Stalker,

I've been reading since the inception of version 1.0. I have to say, its deffinately come along way and it appears to me that it is complex (in a good way for those of us who enjoy it) yet simple enough to understand, very streamlined. Its adds a level of excitement and tension with the whole "risk vs. reward" when deciding to use healing surges. I love it! To me this is exactly the kind of tension and risk vs. reward that I love to offer as choices to players. "Should I spend my healing surges to help overcome this encounter, or will I need them later" Resource management at its finest.

To add to this heightened sense of player choices, I believe that the Bold Recovery action (choice/decision) needs more weight added to a parties decision to actually use or not. Maybe Bold Recovery isn't necessarily a straightforward "duh yea, I'll use BR" to a more thinking mans game of, "Is it worth it?". Incurring a thoretical 2 healing surge penalty for use of Bold Recovery would very well get parties thinking about what may lie on the other side of that very same skill checked door. All-the-while, their surges and other resources are slowly being drained away.

With an actual high level expense to a risky choice, party members may actually elect to fail the encounter over expending more much needed resources. Especially when they may not know what further lies ahead beyond the actual skill check encounter itself. Risk vs. Reward my friend, gotta love it.

That would essentially be my only suggestion to you, as I will probably adopt it if I do indeed choose to run your system. I'm very satisfied with your mathmatical expertise and work to improve on WotC's shortcomings in this area. Thanks for all the hard work.

And thats my 2 cents.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't know if this is feasible in the model or for that matter mathematically equivalent, but I think it would feel more intuitive if, instead of Bold Recovery successes retroactively modifying failed checks, The Bold Recovery check were modified by the magnitude of the original failure. Since recovery is a reaction to the failure and not an interrupt, it shouldn't really be revising the result so much as trying to compensate for it.

I'm a little confused what you mean by this. Are you saying for example, that if a person fails teh original check by 5, then simply have the BR have a -5 on its check, but if it succeeds the failure is negated?

To add to this heightened sense of player choices, I believe that the Bold Recovery action (choice/decision) needs more weight added to a parties decision to actually use or not. Maybe Bold Recovery isn't necessarily a straightforward "duh yea, I'll use BR" to a more thinking mans game of, "Is it worth it?". Incurring a thoretical 2 healing surge penalty for use of Bold Recovery would very well get parties thinking about what may lie on the other side of that very same skill checked door. All-the-while, their surges and other resources are slowly being drained away.

In an earlier version of BR, I did just that, although it was only 1 healing surge instead of 2. Eventually I decided I didn't want to move too far away from the original system, and have parties consume tons of surges. However, if you would like to add this in...go for it!! The math assumes a party will use BR...in general it also assumes the best skill user will use BR first. However, if you want to add in a requirement for a party to consume surges to bail itself out at the end there, that should work out fine. Just understand that a party suffers a higher failure rate should they chose not to surges in that critical time.

 

[Stalker0]

I used the your skill challenge system tonight for 3 challenges and it worked well. If complexity 1 wasn't a 1:1 ratio, nearly all 3 would have been a failure. The interesting one was in the second kobold ambush in the KotS, where the skirmisher attempted to run off into the woods and the ranger was hot on its tail. The rest of the party dealt with the wyrmpriest that was left and alone he rolled an Acrobatics, Nature, Perception, Endurance, and finally Acrobatics.

Before the last acrobatics he had 2 successes and 2 failures, and the last failure indicated that he lost the kobold and the Kobold Lair would be ready for the party. So, I told him he was in the "Time of Trials" and that he could expend a healing surge in order to gain +2 on his check. He agreed and made one final leap with his acrobatics skill, ending up with a 18 with the +2 included. Epic!

Wonderful to hear the system has worked for you so far. I am actually surprised to hear so much feedback about complexity 1 challenges, I actually expected more people to use 2 and 3...but that's the kind of live feedback that I can use to make my system better.

As for your question about whether to allow that heroic surge or a BR for the stealth check. As the DM, its your game run it how you like. I think a BR roll would have fine, the heroic surge was fine, heck even both would have been fine!

 

[gonesailing]

I am putting some sample skill challenges together for my own use. I am going to keep them in this thread
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=230819

Also, Magus Coeruleus, we seem to be working toward the same end (Documentation). Would you prefer to collaborate? My personal preference would be to keep the same terminology that Stalker0 is working on, though.

 

[Paranoia23]

I run a lot of one-shots for which I specially tailor the characters to work well with the encounters planned. Using Stalker's system, have I read correctly that the characters are supposed to hit the medium DC 62% of the time? Meaning they generally need an 8 or 9 on the die when using the skills helpful to the skill challenge?

Given how sensitive the skill challenge system is, it'll be nice to be able to tailor the probabilities exactly by pre-genning the characters. I think I read in the original thread that it presumes one minmaxed skill monkey. If I make a party and challenge in which _everyone_ is hitting their roll on 8 or 9, am I pretty much losing out on the monkey-oriented mechanics that require hard DCs?

I guess what would be helpful to me as a party designer is to hear what die rolls each character should be looking for to hit a medium DC, and if the answer is an average value, then how much variance is acceptable. E.g. "'1 Monkey @ 6+, 2 smarties @ 8+, 2 meatshields @ 10+' works but 'monkey at 2+ and meatshields at 13+' dooms the party"

Thanks for all the work. I'm going to do a test challenge during my game this Sunday.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

I am putting some sample skill challenges together for my own use. I am going to keep them in this thread
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=230819

Also, Magus Coeruleus, we seem to be working toward the same end (Documentation). Would you prefer to collaborate? My personal preference would be to keep the same terminology that Stalker0 is working on, though.

Given my time constraints, I think I'd rather provide feedback on what you guys develop rather than contribute more directly. I just wanted to show him what I was suggesting by modifying his documentation because I thought it was faster than writing tons of comments in a list the way I did before. Hope you don't mind my passing the buck!

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

I'm a little confused what you mean by this. Are you saying for example, that if a person fails teh original check by 5, then simply have the BR have a -5 on its check, but if it succeeds the failure is negated?

That's the concept exactly, yes. Whether it would be a 1 for 1 penalty or some other function I don't know.

 

[gonesailing]

Given my time constraints, I think I'd rather provide feedback on what you guys develop rather than contribute more directly. I just wanted to show him what I was suggesting by modifying his documentation because I thought it was faster than writing tons of comments in a list the way I did before. Hope you don't mind my passing the buck!

I don't mind and understand that time is a factor. I have some of the same issues.I just didn't want us to be working against each other. And I really want feedback. To that end I will start another thread for documentation so this one doesn't become (more) cluttered.

 

[mrtomsmith]

One thing I find interesting about the system is the potential for expanding it. The concepts of tags (Bold and Aid aka Helpful and Daring) could allow for the invention of additional tags in the future to provide more variety in skill challenges. Just like combat always has new features and abilities for the players to master, it'd be nice if skills could stay fresh over 30 levels.

Examples: (kept vague to avoid balance concerns)
(Comeback) Failure provides a bonus to future rolls within some limitations (with a specific skill, within the next round, aids only, etc.)
(Recoverable) If you fail on this one, another PC can roll (specific skill) to save you, even if not in Time of Troubles.
(Insightful) Success reveals what other skills can be used.
(Risky) Failure prevents the use of (allowed skill) until the end of this character's next turn.

You could probably also invent Feats and/or Powers that play into the system. Bonuses specific to Recovery or Time of Trials, for example.

Could the name "Time of Trials" be connected in some way to the 'bloodied' term from 4e combat? It's vaguely similar in that things change when you're closer to failure, so it might be nice to connect the two.

 

[Dayspire]

Hey Stalker - check out this http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dungeon - it's a new adventure from Dungeon magazine, and it has two examples of skill challenges.