Stalker0's Obsidian Skill Challenge System (Update: Version 1.1) Now with PDF!!

[Zetesofos]

Wow. When I read the skill challenge system in 4th edition, I thought, this was amazing, it gives me something to work with. And after running my first campaign with it, it worked well, though I did have my reservations. It felt a bit forced, and I tried to be open to ideas because the failure for nothing put me off, regardless of the involvement.

But this system seems to fix every problem I could have foreseen. I see it being easily explainable to my players, easy to run. It seems to encourage new players who have not done so to roleplay, and at the same time rewards my seasoned players. And that I can adjust it on the fly, let the players decide how they help, and most importantly, keeps metagaming to a minimum (which I like).

Overall, an excellent piece of work. I shall use this system with every opportunity.

 

[doctorhook]

I would never beat around the bush Doc Hook. Here is a general comparison between the two systems:

Original
1) More gradual length to the system, able to accommodate slightly larger or shorter skill challenges.
2) More player options
3) More in line with original system, good for those who don't want a significant change from the original.
4) Players are encouraged to use their best skills in nearly every encounter, and to use aid another.*
5) More mechanical

Obsidian
1) Sturdier math, able to take DM's tweaking on the fly better.
2) Cleaner and easier to learn overall.
3) Players are encouraged to use certain skills for certain challenges, even if they aren't very good in that skill.*
3) Mechanics are further in the background, more "invisible".

You'll note I (*) one point on each list. This is the core philosophy difference between the two systems.

From a mechanical point of view, Obsidian is better. Its math is sturdier, scales better, and can take the occasional DM, "what the heck, let's try...THIS" more than the original. But as you'll note, many people in this thread want more options with Obsidian, because they like that in the original. Its hard to get the rock solid math and provide more options, they tend to work against each other. Also, the other disadvantage to Obsidian is that its length is "set". For a 5 player group, its 15 rolls everytime. That's a fair number of rolls, which doesn't support the quicky skill challenge as well.

The bottom line is what system would fit your party's playstyle better. If they prefer a skill challenge to be more "roleplaying", then use Obsidian. If they prefer it to be more like combat with tactical options and the like, use the original.

You're a good guy, Stalker0. You know I'll be back with my ridiculous "new car" analogy again next time you design something.

BTW, is this the final version of Obsidian?

Oh, and consider this a *BUMP*.

 

[nikkomega]

I used this system in our last game for two skill challenges (tracking down some halfling smugglers and setting up a meeting with a gang boss), and it worked like a charm. Much more in tune with our style than the original, which quickly degenerated into an exercise in "what reason can I come up with for using whatever I have +9 in". Thanks for putting this out there!

Hmm... first post on this forum, I didn't realize that a reference to bovine feces would be transmuted into a row of smileys. How nauseatingly family-friendly.

 

[The_Warlock]

Hmm... first post on this forum, I didn't realize that a reference to bovine feces would be transmuted into a row of smileys. How nauseatingly family-friendly.

Like the rules state, don't post if Grandma would be offended. Some think it's over the top, but ENWorld remains one of the most civil, friendly, welcoming internet forums I've EVER been on.

Back on topic: Bump for extraordinarily multi-purpose very cool skill challenge system.

 

[doctorhook]

..."What reason can I come up with for using whatever I have +9 in". Thanks for putting this out there!

Hmm... first post on this forum, I didn't realize that a reference to bovine feces would be transmuted into a row of smileys. How nauseatingly family-friendly.

Whoa, cool new feature! Also, your double-post was automerged; that's new to me too.[/offtopic]

Is anyone good with PDFs? Obsidian's could use some trimming, I think.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

So on Friday I ran a skill challenge and sort of used the system. I mean I used it but I forgot to print the rules and so I kind of winged it from what I remember. Here's the situation: the party is in a cabin waiting for the return of the ferry operator, who happens to have a massive pet bear she hunts with. Night falls and no ferry woman (as they later discover, she has been killed), but the bear shows up and starts wailing on the door to get in; a Nature check reveals it would NOT be a good idea to let it in even if it lives here, and that it is vicious enough to kill at least one person before being taken down by the group. So, enter skill challenge: keep the bear from getting in long enough for it to eventually lose interest or give up and leave. The bear is clawing at the door and the cabin itself shakes.

At first I ran it where everyone (in no particular order) had to tell me what they were doing before any one of them would roll and I'd tell them the results. In the last segment success/failure by one one person was relevant to another person's decision on what to do so I allowed it be resolved first.

The warlord tried to move furniture to barricade the door (Str check). He failed, so I told him it turns out the furniture is bolted to the floor (which other player's rationalized immediately as being a precaution against the bear moving it around too easily if/when the owner lets it in). The wizard used Ghost Sound (Arcana check) to create a sound of pots and pans to distract or frighten the bear (distract, in this case). The fighter looked for any treats the operator might keep for the bear (great choice, but failed the Perception check). The rogue checked the shuttered windows to make sure their latches were as secure as possible (I ruled that a Thievery rather than Perception check along lines of working with devices) and succeeded.

I forgot a lot. I didn't have the DC table with me but had a general idea what it should be for a 1st level party and everyone was pretty well above or below that # so little ambiguity. Actually I think I underestimated the DCs a bit but I also forgot about using action points to get allow a reroll, which they definitely would have used, so maybe that's a wash. I had forgotten about +2 for using the primary skill, and really had no intent of what that should be anyway. I forgot about critical success but no nat 20s anyway. I was in the ballpark on thresholds for total and partial victory. Despite forgetting a lot I felt comfortable enough with how it was going to just keep rolling with it.

Second segment--the bear has penetrated the door enough that they see its claws on one paw coming through. I raise my hand with curled fingers and describe it has having nails each the length of my fingers. Some are thinking of whether it would be good to try and distract and flee if possible. Rogue checks for alternative exits (Perception) and determines that at least he can get up into the beams and through thatching to the top; not directly relevant but I let it count as a success. Actually it made sense because I then let someone who asked to use Nature to figure whether trying to run (after climbing onto the roof that is) would be a viable plan; I allowed this check as something outside the skill challenge action selection, so it's really like the rogue's mechanical success made logical sense by triggering recall in another's knowledge. Anyway, I tell them that the bear could really destroy the cabin if it wants to and that they likely can't flee unless they split up and let someone be the bait. Everyone else decides to work together on finding the bear treats that they are convinced must be there (interestingly, they are as I had thought of that ahead of time but never hinted at it). Good choice because 2 of the 3 of them fail but since 1 succeeded they find the jar under the operator's bed.

Last segment. They have 4 successes and I didn't remember how many they needed but I knew they were in a range to have anything from failure to total victory, so since I did remember about going for broke I told them about that. No one elected to do that, however, maybe because they didn't know exactly how many successes they needed, but no one minded. Last actions: Wizard tried using an axe to break the part of the furniture attaching it to the bolt (Str check) so that the warlord could try again to move it as a barricade (Str check). They both failed. But that wasn't the last best hope anyway, which was for the fighter to hurl a bear treat as far as possible (Str check) out the window, which the rogue prepared to quickly and open and then shut to minimize exposure time to the bear (Dex check). Both succeded.

I told them that as the warlord and wizard tried in vain to barricade the door, the bear burst a large enough hole in the door to shove its face part way in. Here I roared at the group menacingly then stopped, sniffed at the air, and told them that the bear went off to investigate the treat. Now, in retrospect I see this was a partial victory, but I didn't know that at the time for certain and also in retrospect I realize they didn't have the benefit of +2 to any of their skills, so being pretty happy with how this worked out and their ingenuity, I told them bear came back after some time with the treat, growled and snuffled a bit, but then thudded off.

So this wasn't the best playtest since I forgot certain elements but it was close enough for our purposes--it didn't take very long but it was suspenseful and entertaining. I haven't played much with any except one of the players, so maybe they're always like this, but I felt people were focused more on solutions than which were applicable skills for the most part. This is really the sort of thing I wanted, some guidelines on how hard and how many the checks should be to give decent probabilities, and leave everything else to me in terms of the order in which people go, which skills are applicable, etc.

My critiques from this experience are that I don't really see challenges all 1) neatly fitting into mental vs physical vs social and 2) having 1 or 2 skills that clearly deserve the +2 versus other skills. This challenge was not a social one, but physical and mental were equally viable (physically block the bear from coming in versus distracting it). I'm also not sure what I should have +2ed. Maybe Perception because of how useful finding the treats is? Physically the checks were all Str, not even a skill per se. Dunno.

Anyway, thanks for a great system, Stalker0.

My next skill challenge will be spread over the course of a night in the midst of combat encounters as the party attempts to defend a homestead from goblin besiegers until dawn. I have told them at the end of last session that they should think about general strategies they want to employ to assist in the defense as opposed to specific microactions and that how successful they are with those at each segment will affect the encounters during the night and of course the overall skill challenge result will play a large role in determining whether they succeed in holding out for the night. I'm not sure how much I will prespecify these contingencies since I already have the encounters mostly lined up. I think I'll just wing how those encounters are affected by progress through the challenge and let the final tally provide bonuses or penalties to the final battle just before dawn.

 

[2eBladeSinger]

Obsidian is largely what I was hoping for out of the 4e skill challenge system; that they presented us with a mathematically broken, clumsy mechanic is one of the (only) true disappointments of 4e. I’m looking forward to utilizing this new system. My question is: why do the DCs scale unevenly, since the bonuses on the skills are, themselves, very universal? For example, a trained skill at level 6 would have a bonus of 8 through 13 with no other modifiers. At levels 6 and 7, this requires a roll of 8-13 to get a standard success. At levels 8, 9, 10 and 11 the average roll required goes from 9-14 and at level 12 back to 8-13.

 

[Stalker0]

Obsidian My question is: why do the DCs scale unevenly, since the bonuses on the skills are, themselves, very universal?

The bonuses only scale evenly....if your assuming everyone is using the same kind of skill. For example, a person's good skills will scale up faster than his bad skills, as he's likely to put all of his ability points in stats that boost his best skills. Further, a person who really wants to be good at a skill will pick up magic items that boost it even further.

I had to take all of this into account when setting my DCs, because as a party gets higher in level the disparity between good and bad skills gets a little bit wider. Not a lot thank goodness, but a noticeable amount especially towards the epic levels.

 

[Yogurt-in-BC]

Just to confirm, the 2-person skill challenge assumes that these are the two best people of a 5-person party, right? So one has above average skills and one has average skills.

That means if I'm running a game where the entire party consists of two people, I should adjust either the DC or the number of successes.

Great system, and I look forward to using it!

 

[Stalker0]

Just to confirm, the 2-person skill challenge assumes that these are the two best people of a 5-person party, right? So one has above average skills and one has average skills.

That means if I'm running a game where the entire party consists of two people, I should adjust either the DC or the number of successes.

For a 2 person challenge, it assumes that one person is good, and the other below average. If you have two very good people, you may want to add +1 to your DC. In general I recommend changing DC before changing successes, you'll get smoother results.