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Staples refuses to print my PDFs....

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Just to chime in way late in this discussion...I talked to a couple of friends of mine (one has been working at Kinkos for nearly ten years, the other is a city manager at Copy Max) and they both said that neither of their companies have a policy that precludes printing PDFs for personal use.
 

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We've had similar problems but with photo's we've taken with -our- digital camera. The photo stores told us they looked too professional and that they must be copyrighted so we could not print the photo's out without a release form from the original photographer. I was pretty pissed at first but then we got the release form, took it home and filled it out ourselves with our name. We took it back and then they printed them out. Pretty messed up, I guess it's just to cover there butts incase someone does come barking.
 

Ideas are not property

Dannyalcatraz said:
Geof said:
My impression is that the cost of the schemes you are proposing or support <snip> exceed the financial gain to publishers and authors.
Quite possibly- but that's for the market to decide.

You ignored the part where I explained how the costs of copyright are externalized. They are paid not only by copyright owners and consumers, but also by society at large. The market cannot operate efficiently in this context. In fact, according to economic theory copyright is guaranteed to create inefficiency. Copyright is a monopoly; it breaks the market. You cannot resort to the market to "decide" whether a monopoly is efficient.

Dannyalcatraz said:
Name another form of property that features full ownership (not leases, licenses, life estates, etc) rights that can be taken away by the mere operation of time, potentially without compensation.

The answer to your question is that ideas are not property, either in nature or in law. Copyright simply does not feature "full ownership" (whatever that means). When you own a copyright, you own that legal set of rights. You do not own the idea itself.

Property is a human construct, created and enforced by law and custom. We can redefine property and change our ideas (encouraging some and discouraging others) and put them in the category of "property". It is very difficult to exclude others from using ideas, so the cost of maintaining this artificial state of affairs is very high.

Even for land, property is artificial. When settlers moved West into the prairie of North America, the land was not owned. Indeed, it was not even property. People created laws and they built fences and they enforced exclusivity. What before had been only Land was divided and parcelled into Property. The transformation created intense conflict - between ranchers and farmers, between natives and Europeans; that conflict continues to this day.

The question of copyright is one of what we as a society choose to do. Many proponents conceal this by presenting ideas as property the natural state of affairs. Say it loud enough and long enough and people will believe it. If you want moral outrage, however, you will have to reach back beyond simple assertions and make a genuine argument about why that should be. Otherwise, you are stuck making (often legitimate) economic arguments about the relative benefits of enforcing the ownership of ideas.

Dannyalcatraz said:
A great deal of that is due to copyright and other forms of IP protection. Between manditory licensing regimes in music and the operation of the free market allowing the creation of other licenses, the world has experienced an explosion in creative ideas reaching the masses.

Can we attribute that to copyright? To technology? To an increase in wealth allowing the majority of people to divert their resources from the necessities of life toward other pursuits?

Your reference to "the masses" is telling, for it reveals the tragedy of copyright today. The masses are a subordinate group, constructed as the passive audience of a relatively small number of publishers and authors. We can eliminate that distinction; in fact we are finding it is very difficult to maintain. People are demonstrating every day that they want to create and they want to share - and these are good things. One would have to have a very good reason indeed to prevent that from happening.

There is a very good reason to allow it. Participation and speech are the foundation of democracy. Cultural speech is no less important than political, journalistic, or factual speech. As it stands, copyright stands in the way. That is why I say this is a moral concern.

You talk about seizing someone's grandmother's wedding ring. Copyright does something similar. You say:

Dannyalcatraz said:
Gaming is a form of collaborative fiction. Similar forms, such as shared world fictions like the Thieves' World books, have historically required that authors using the work of others get clearance. In RPGs, one person creates the mass framework, others move and act within it. The GM has a copyright in his campaign world, his players in their PCs.

So we have a situation in which either a) a creator or author (the GM, say) must obtain prior permission before creating or b) is able to create in private but is unable to share. The freedom of the author to share his or her creation is effectively expropriated by the holders of copyrights. This might be tenable in the market, where parties can negotiate for mutual financial gain, but it is disastrous in the case of non-commercial creativity.

Earlier I mentioned why and how this happened. Before something becomes property, it must be transformed. In this case, ideas must be separated from each other. We must isolate the contributions of various authors. Does it even make sense to say the GM owns certain parts of a story while the players own others and the game or setting designer still others? Can the PCs be separated from their world? I say no, but this is exactly what copyright requires.
 

Patents.

And there is plenty of compensation.

Actually, I was referring to IP in general.

And as for compensation, like I said, it is potentially without compensation. One of the bundle of rights in (most) IP is the right to control who uses it- including not allowing anyone to use it.

Regardless of the IP holder's wishes, after a certain amount of time, IP passes into the public domain.

The difference here is that IP is an idea not a physical thing. A physical thing can be controled or owned. An idea has no such tangible way of possesion. The government can use its power to try and regulate how those ideas spread but there is no real property that can be returned to its owner, all it can do is punish people for spreading ideas without government permission.

That IP is largely immaterial is...immaterial.

Even an idea may be controlled if you're willing to take steps to do so. That was the idea behind trade secrets being guarded- sometimes violently- by guilds in the pre-IP law days.

And remember, its not strictly government action here- its government action on the behalf of IP holders. There is a mix of civil and criminal liability.

At any rate, part of the requirement for legal protection of most forms of IP is being affixed to a physical medium in some form. That can be sheet music for a song, a script for a movie, copies of notes for a chemical formula, or a "working" model for a patent. Even strings of computer code may qualify once saved to some kind of storage medium.

You ignored the part where I explained how the costs of copyright are externalized. They are paid not only by copyright owners and consumers, but also by society at large. The market cannot operate efficiently in this context. The market cannot operate efficiently in this context. In fact, according to economic theory copyright is guaranteed to create inefficiency. Copyright is a monopoly; it breaks the market. You cannot resort to the market to "decide" whether a monopoly is efficient.

Dead wrong.

1) The sunk costs of IP development belong to the IP creator alone. Unless there is a reasonable chance of a particular piece of IP recovering those sunk costs, that IP will never come to market.

2) The market operates efficiently in that context every day. Every product ever developed, physical or ephemeral, has development costs. Those costs, along with overhead (personnel, shipping, security, etc.) are factored into the per-unit prices.

3) IP only creates a short term "monopoly" in a single product- and technically, its not even a true monopoly. Monopoly only exists in the absence of a reasonable substitute. Unless you're talking about something completely new, or something that has very high costs of market entry (traditionally, things like utilities- power, water, etc.) there is always a substitute- even though it may be older and less efficient. You want to use the latest hyperefficient engine but can't afford the price the IP holder has set to do so? Use someone else's engine. You want to use a kid-friendly cartoon of some kind of anthropomorphic vermin to advertise your new armor piercing ammo but Disney won't let you? Design your own talking rat.
Copyright simply does not feature "full ownership" (whatever that means).

Full ownership would be a bundle of rights that will not revert to someone with a superior interest in the property. A license, a lease, a life estate, etc. are all forms of limited ownership.

The answer to your question is that ideas are not property, either in nature or in law.

Which is why ideas must be affixed to a physical form to recieve full protection under the law.

I may have the idea for a new form of X, but until I submit it in physical form to the right IP office, anyone else can claim to be its inventor and gain the attendent rights.
Gaming is a form of collaborative fiction. Similar forms, such as shared world fictions like the Thieves' World books, have historically required that authors using the work of others get clearance. In RPGs, one person creates the mass framework, others move and act within it. The GM has a copyright in his campaign world, his players in their PCs.


So we have a situation in which either a) a creator or author (the GM, say) must obtain prior permission before creating or b) is able to create in private but is unable to share. The freedom of the author to share his or her creation is effectively expropriated by the holders of copyrights. This might be tenable in the market, where parties can negotiate for mutual financial gain, but it is disastrous in the case of non-commercial creativity.

What we have is a situation where a) a creator or author must obtain prior permission before creating something using someone else's work or b) someone has never heard of fan fiction.

In the case of non-commercial creativity, all the IP holder has to do is abandon his rights. No negotiation needed. No market involved.

Anyone can share if they want to- that is not limited by any form of IP. In fact, there was a commercial a few years ago in which a major car manufacturer noted that they had invented a certain safety system...and had given it away (yes, for free!) for all to use in the spirit of being a good corporate citizen.

Can we attribute that to copyright?

We sure can- the countries that enforce and respect IP rights have an increasingly rich body of IP to work with. Russia & China, notorious for not respecting IP rights, are falling behind. So many Chinese inventors are going broke as Chinese pirates steal their IP that the Chinese government is actually cracking down.

If you want moral outrage, however, you will have to reach back beyond simple assertions and make a genuine argument about why that should be. Otherwise, you are stuck making (often legitimate) economic arguments about the relative benefits of enforcing the ownership of ideas.

If you want to see what ownership of IP and other property forms means, look no further than Hong Kong. There is a reason why the most populace communist nation on Earth has allowed Hong Kong to retain much of its economic freedom after it reverted from British rule to Chinese rule- it is an economic powerhouse. Every brake put on Hong Kong by the Chinese gov't has resulted in costly slowdowns.

Simply put, humans react favorably to being able to profit from the fruits of their labor. The more those fruits are culled by others, be they the gov't or just petty thieves, the less effort they're going to put into using their resources to bring that fruit to the market, and more into trying other avenues of making a living.

Your reference to "the masses" is telling, for it reveals the tragedy of copyright today. The masses are a subordinate group, constructed as the passive audience of a relatively small number of publishers and authors.

"The masses" was not in any way used as a pejorative, dismissive, or diminuation of humanity- if you wish, substitute "the market" or "the populace" as you like.

When I do a painting, create a piece of jewelry or write a song, everyone else in the world is "the masses." When I'm buying someone else's music or art, I'm "the masses."

No subordination.
 

Copyright is a monopoly

I argued that the specific costs and benefits of current copyright law and enforcement are such that the costs exceed the benefits. You replied that this might be so, but that the market would sort it out. Yet this is no argument at all, because copyright itself structures the market!

Dannyalcatraz said:
IP only creates a short term "monopoly" in a single product
Furthermore, you suggest that copyright (whose 50+ to 95 year term you call "short term" right) is not a "true monopoly" because "Monopoly only exists in the absence of a reasonable substitute." This is splitting hairs. What is the "reasonable substitute" for Gone With the Wind for Alice Randall, author of The Wind Done Gone? For Marion Zimmer Bradley, who allowed fans to use her Darkover world only to be threatened with a lawsuit should she write something remotely similar to the work of one of those "fans"? For Carol Shloss, the scholar blocked from quoting James Joyce's documents by Joyce's descendants? Fortunately Shloss won her case - yet going to court is an extremely high cost, which only goes to support my argument about relative costs and benefits. If you have invested in Windows software then what, I ask, is the reasonable substitute for Microsoft Windows?

Dannyalcatraz said:
The market operates efficiently . . . Every product ever developed, physical or ephemeral, has development costs. Those costs, along with overhead . . . are factored into the per-unit prices.
Monopoly rents are not efficient. In this particular case, once the sunk costs of development are recovered, subsequent profits above the marginal cost of production are inefficient. The per-unit price of, say, an Elvis recording today is completely disconnected from the sunk costs of development. True, the record company may use some of the excess profits from Elvis to fund other music - or they may not. At this point, the use of those profits is up to the wisdom of the holder of the monopoly right; the market isn't "deciding" anything at all.

Dannyalcatraz said:
Full ownership would be a bundle of rights that will not revert to someone with a superior interest in the property.
There, you've answered your question: the party with superior interest is the public, hence the reversion to the public domain.

Dannyalcatraz said:
I may have the idea for a new form of X, but until I submit it in physical form to the right IP office, anyone else can claim to be its inventor and gain the attendent rights.
Of course this applies to patents and trademarks, but not to copyright. Mixing up different forms of "IP" as though they were equivalent is misleading.

Dannyalcatraz said:
What we have is a situation where a) a creator or author must obtain prior permission before creating something using someone else's work

In the case of non-commercial creativity, all the IP holder has to do is abandon his rights. No negotiation needed. No market involved.

I hate to recite what we both know, but every author uses the work of others. For successful work, much or most of the value of that work is the product of the audience. What we really have is a situation in which certain authors are granted special privileges, while others are denied the freedom to speak.

In the absence of a license, a copyright holder can always shut down any derivative works - assuming he's willing to bear the court costs and enforcement is practical (again see my point about costs and benefits above). Is there any incentive for the copyright holder to do so? How often to large corporations - who hold most copyrights - grant such permission? IP holders have repeatedly shut down non-commercial works.

And guess what - if the copyright is intended to place works in the market so that authors can get paid and the work can be distributed to the public, it is now doing the exact opposite. We have excluded creative work from the market.

Dannyalcatraz said:
the countries that enforce and respect IP rights have an increasingly rich body of IP to work with. Russia & China, notorious for not respecting IP rights, are falling behind.
I propose wealth and technology as explanations for the richness of culture, and you provide Russia and China as counter examples? Countries that have been in upheaval for a century? That lack freedom of the press, functioning court systems, sanitary food? And you say weak copyright is the reason they're falling behind?

Let me give you a different counter example. The United States had shorter copyright terms and stricter provisions than Europe for a century, until they signed the Berne Convention in 1988.

Dannyalcatraz said:
Simply put, humans react favorably to being able to profit from the fruits of their labor. The more those fruits are culled by others, be they the gov't or just petty thieves, the less effort they're going to put into using their resources to bring that fruit to the market, and more into trying other avenues of making a living.
If you give one half of an argument, you can't get more than one half of the answer. Copyright as it exists today does this. It also prevents authorship, incurs high economic costs, results in qualitatively different works being produced, criminalizes the young while delegitimizing the law, and most importantly of all, it censors speech. It must be shortened, but most of all it must be narrowed. Until then, we will end up with costly and silly situations like the one at Staples that started this whole discussion.
 
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No more good can come from this thread.

The political nature of the issue was tolerated until it was clear that the original relevance of the thread to RPGs and gaming had been abandoned for political debate no longer in the realm of what belongs on these boards.

Thread closed.
 

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