Spoilers Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

[jian]

Thats... a good point. I think the DS9 S31 was implied to be capable and likely doing this kind of thing, but it was off screen. You didnt really know how big S31 was, or how terrible, Sloan was sort of the only window into it. I liked it better that way. Especially, since it served no purpose in Picard other than to give motivation to the villain.

I didn't know about the Picard era guys. So they haven't been torn out root and branch after the Dominion War, I guess. Time to erase that whole timeline, maybe?

 

[Ryujin]

Inquisition also made us wonder how exactly holodecks work, again. Is food you eat in holodecks edible? Can holodecks create clothes for you to wear, and if so, why does anyone bother dressing up to go to the holodeck?

(The latter came up because Sloan is in a normal Starfleet uniform for most of the masquerade, as are his subordinates, but are all shown to be wearing black pleather when Julian finally realises he's in a simulation. So were they wearing those all along but projected the appearance of velour over the top, or did they have time to get changed just before Julian worked it out? Or are the pleather uniforms the illusion?

I love the idea that Sloan et al were just hiding outside, waiting gleefully for the penny to drop so they could quickly change into their Gestapo fetish gear. Pro tip, by the way - if you're trying to recruit people into your super-secret evil organisation it probably helps if you don't dress like Nazis.)

(I'm inclined to think the answer is that holodecks can project clothes on to you but of course they disappear as soon as you leave the program, so people dress up to go to the holodeck so they don't have to walk back to their quarters in their skivvies, assuming skivvies exist in Star Trek and that's not already their kink.)

(My headcanon about Sloan et al is that they hang out in holodecks 24/7 and never wear any real clothes unless they have to.)

I think that the Holodeck can create actual clothing and food, or can at least act as a food synthesizer on a larger scale. Why do people get dressed before going into a Holodeck? For the same reason they own costumes rather than renting them, to go out for Hallowe'en, or own period clothing. (The last might be a bad example, as I own at least 2 full Victorian suits and a Regency tux, and actually wear them to 'normal' events.)

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if, while Section 31 has technically existed since the foundation of the Federation (like the Culpeper Ring or something), the version shown was put together very quickly as a response to the Dominion War, which is arguably the first overwhelming existential threat the Federation has faced for which having a Ministry of Pissing About might actually be helpful (it probably wouldn't have been any use against the Borg). It's still a terrible idea but mostly the result of institutional panic.

I could see it as a sort of Skull and Bones Society, that no one wants to admit actually exists or claims membership in, but I'd still want to see it be burnt out like a cancer, onscreen.

 

[pukunui]

I didn't know about the Picard era guys. So they haven't been torn out root and branch after the Dominion War, I guess. Time to erase that whole timeline, maybe?

Actually it seems like I was misremembering (or misunderstood when I first watched Picard). According to Memory Alpha, S31 is mostly gone by the Picard era.

The torturous experiments I mentioned technically occurred during the Dominion War and were conducted by Daystrom Institute scientists working with S31.

The black ops space station visited in Picard S3 is like a relic museum containing all the bits and pieces that S31 collected or created, many of which were fan servicey Easter eggs (like a Genesis II device and a self-sealing stem bolt).

They also put bodies on ice in the station. It would seem they found and exhumed Kirk’s corpse, for instance.

However, by the 25th century, the station has been mostly abandoned and is just guarded / patrolled by Starfleet Security. There are no active S31 members working there anymore.

So it seems like maybe DS9 was meant to be their denouement and the stuff seen in Picard is mostly just their legacy.

 

[payn]

There was a distinct lack of DS9 characters in Picard. I get it, Rene had passed so no Odo, but man Kira, Bashear, Garrack Quark, would have been so fun. I could see instead of S31 doing this crap, Beshear roots them out. A few get away, and ironically, team up with changling outcasts. Now you have an entirely new threat that can be eradicated by Picard and friends. Not what they seem to want to do with S31 tho...

 

[jian]

Actually it seems like I was misremembering (or misunderstood when I first watched Picard). According to Memory Alpha, S31 is mostly gone by the Picard era.

The torturous experiments I mentioned technically occurred during the Dominion War and were conducted by Daystrom Institute scientists working with S31.

The black ops space station visited in Picard S3 is like a relic museum containing all the bits and pieces that S31 collected or created, many of which were fan servicey Easter eggs (like a Genesis II device and a self-sealing stem bolt).

They also put bodies on ice in the station. It would seem they found and exhumed Kirk’s corpse, for instance.

However, by the 25th century, the station has been mostly abandoned and is just guarded / patrolled by Starfleet Security. There are no active S31 members working there anymore.

So it seems like maybe DS9 was meant to be their denouement and the stuff seen in Picard is mostly just their legacy.

Kind of like a Black Museum, I guess. "This is why we don't do this crap anymore. No fanboys!"

 

[jian]

There was a distinct lack of DS9 characters in Picard. I get it, Rene had passed so no Odo, but man Kira, Bashear, Garrack Quark, would have been so fun. I could see instead of S31 doing this crap, Beshear roots them out. A few get away, and ironically, team up with changling outcasts. Now you have an entirely new threat that can be eradicated by Picard and friends. Not what they seem to want to do with S31 tho...

Now that's a basis for a DS9 continuation series I could get behind. Have Worf, Dax, Kira, and Bashir deal with new terrorist false-flag operations by Section 31 and their co-opted changeling renegades on the Federation.

For bonus points, get a version of Jadzia from an alternate universe where she never died (presumably where Berman wasn't such a massive sexist a-hole) along to confuse Worf and Ezri.

 

[MarkB]

Now that's a basis for a DS9 continuation series I could get behind. Have Worf, Dax, Kira, and Bashir deal with new terrorist false-flag operations by Section 31 and their co-opted changeling renegades on the Federation.

For bonus points, get a version of Jadzia from an alternate universe where she never died (presumably where Berman wasn't such a massive sexist a-hole) along to confuse Worf and Ezri.

We do at least get quite a few of them in Lower Decks, both in the episode where they visit DS9 and the alternate versions later in the final season. Plus Worf counts as a DS9 character as well as a TNG character.

 

[pukunui]

Kind of like a Black Museum, I guess. "This is why we don't do this crap anymore. No fanboys!"

Yeah kind of. I think when I watched that episode of Picard, I must have mistook the Starfleet Security guys for actual Section 31 agents or something.

Another thing that confused me on ST: Discovery was how, when Burnham first boarded the ship, she saw Section 31 agents with their black pins standing guard, implying that the experimental ship is a Section 31 thing, but IIRC those guards are never seen again, and Section 31 doesn't really become a thing until Season 2. (I may be misremembering again.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yeah kind of. I think when I watched that episode of Picard, I must have mistook the Starfleet Security guys for actual Section 31 agents or something.

Another thing that confused me on ST: Discovery was how, when Burnham first boarded the ship, she saw Section 31 agents with their black pins standing guard, implying that the experimental ship is a Section 31 thing, but IIRC those guards are never seen again, and Section 31 doesn't really become a thing until Season 2. (I may be misremembering again.)

I believe the explanation is probably the kind of production issues that surrounded the issue and no good story-telling reason.

My best guess - Section 31 was involved because they were interested in the project and Lorca requested Burnham, and they were the right people to manipulate the shuttle accident that got her to him. (Which means they killed an innocent pilot, or faked his death?). Or they were involved in locating the lost sister ship, wasn't it in Klingon territory, that might require some spy-work?
Either way, their assignment was temporary once everything seemed on track, the project in good hand with Lorca* and Stamets. (Mirror-Lorca, which I don't think anyone knew then, but maybe Section 31 did?)