Spoilers Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

[Arilyn]

I think that’s definitely the character concept and the team (especially Lofton) delivers it very well, but it becomes a significant contrast to everyone else on the show (who are various shades of player character, living through and doing extraordinary things). And it seems clear that the writers really don’t know what to do with that.

Jake has a shot at protagonism when he chooses to stay behind on DS9 as a Federation news reporter, but even then he achieves very little and has some very obvious plot protection (from the highly professional and ethical Weyoun). He eventually ends up being Resistance Cell Member 4, with no clear risk or role. I think that was definitely a wasted opportunity to do more with the character.

This definitely wasn't my favourite Jake portrayal, as he is kind of annoying. DS9 isn't perfect but overall, I like how Jake is handled character wise.

 

[jian]

This definitely wasn't my favourite Jake portrayal, as he is kind of annoying. DS9 isn't perfect but overall, I like how Jake is handled character wise.

Part of it is that he's a regular cast member so he keeps on having to be around (unlike Keiko or even Nog, Martok, or Garak) but they're really not sure what to do with him for all of that time. DS9 isn't a family sitcom where there's a beaten path for characters growing up along with their actors, it doesn't have the same beats or supports. They didn't really want to commit to proper character development, which means changing the character.

A quick personal opinion on who gets the best/most character development in DS9:

Regular cast

• Kira Nerys: Gets a lot of development as well as a lot of fun stuff generally, going from a Cardassian-hating ex-terrorist to a skilled commander with an excellent grasp of the big picture who helps Cardassians liberate themselves from the Dominion, but never losing her compassion or her core values. 4/5.
• Benjamin Sisko: Adapts well and develops with his roles as the Emissary, a Federation diplomat, a war commander, a father, and a husband. Also, great haircut. 3/5.
• Odo: He's basically a Lawful Neutral blank slate when he first appears so there's a lot to colour in. Doesn't change all that much but learns a lot about himself. 3/5.
• Jadzia/Ezri Dax: Changing actresses is sort of cheating. Some general good development, especially with Jadzia in Seasons 5-6. Ezri doesn't really get enough time. 3/5.
• Quark: Quark changes a lot and gets lots of great episodes, but in a lot of ways not much of it actually sticks. Very entertaining, though. 3/5.
• Julian Bashir: The augment revelation honestly didn't do him a lot of favours. His development is mainly along the lines of his relationship with S31, which doesn't happen until S6-7. 2/5.
• Miles O'Brien: Apart from getting two hundred different kinds of PTSD, Miles doesn't change. He's a rock. 2/5.
• Jake Sisko: Very little development, as discussed above. 1/5.

Guest cast

• Nog: Gets an amazing arc and some brilliant episodes. What can we say? No notes. 5/5.
• Dukat: Once a Nazi, always a Nazi, but the best villain in ST for my money. Changes plenty, because he's the personification of the changing face of evil. 4/5.
• Rom: Doesn't get a lot of time but really works it, great character arc. 3/5.
• Garak: Despite starting out as a pretty complex character, Garak just keeps on unfolding and stealing scenes like his life depends on it (and it sometimes does). 3/5.
• Weyoun: Being clones is cheating, but he is adaptive by nature, as shown in many episodes (not least Treachery, Faith, and the Great River). 3/5.
• Kai Winn: Once an a-hole, always an a-hole, but at least by the end she's more honest with herself. 3/5.
• Damar: The poor man's Rom: doesn't have much time but does get an epic arc. 3/5.
• Martok: Endlessly entertaining once he's properly there; gets no points for his early changeling appearances. Goes through some changes, some great episodes. 2/5.
• Morn: The acting, the dialogue, the body language, the emotional range. 5/5.
• Keiko O'Brien: Drops my mood whenever she's on screen. Little development. 1/5. See also: Bareil, Shakaar, etc.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Kira Nerys: Gets a lot of development as well as a lot of fun stuff generally, going from a Cardassian-hating ex-terrorist to a skilled commander with an excellent grasp of the big picture who helps Cardassians liberate themselves from the Dominion, but never losing her compassion or her core values. 4/5.

I'm unreasonably mad you didn't give Kira 5/5 and I can't find any logical reasons for being so mad or to argue with your rating lol.

 

[payn]

A quick personal opinion on who gets the best/most character development in DS9:

• Julian Bashir: The augment revelation honestly didn't do him a lot of favours. His development is mainly along the lines of his relationship with S31, which doesn't happen until S6-7. 2/5.

It appears you are skipping a mountain of development for the Bashir character and simplifying it down to a single story line. All I can say is going from the pilot where Bashir annoys Kira about "living on the frontier" to Julian appealing to his youthful naivete to which Garrack informs him is "not so boyish anymore" to skipping darts a few weeks with O'Brien because he forced him to break his hippocratic oath...

 

[jian]

It appears you are skipping a mountain of development for the Bashir character and simplifying it down to a single story line. All I can say is going from the pilot where Bashir annoys Kira about "living on the frontier" to Julian appealing to his youthful naivete to which Garrack informs him is "not so boyish anymore" to skipping darts a few weeks with O'Brien because he forced him to break his hippocratic oath...

Yes, it’s true - he gets some general maturity and moral/emotional flexibility/range, not least from his friendship with Garak. The S31 stuff is just the natural offshoot for that development. I stand by my rating but agree there’s plenty there.

A lot of the rating is based on how recognisable the character is from beginning to end. Nog and Rom, and probably Damar, are basically unrecognisable; Nerys and Julian aren’t.

 

[jian]

One interesting comparison is DS9 not to other ST series (or even B5) but to concurrent urban fantasy series such as Buffy.

Buffy and its ilk (and all its various descendants) are of course much more dramatic - the writers throw in random deaths, traumas, body changes, resurrections, reincarnations, face heel turns, and whatever else keeps the ratings up, knowing that they can always come up with a magical justification. But often in doing so, in having often very adolescent mood shifts, they lose out on consistent character development and interaction. How can your relationships be stable and grow if your boyfriend is the Big Bad this week?

DS9 plays with this set of tropes arguably more than any other ST series but generally succeeds in retaining consistent characters and relationship development. There are some exceptions - the number of traumas Miles undergoes makes Buffy look like an amateur, and yet apparently they have no effect except to feed his scotch habit - but mostly they pull it off, I think.

 

[payn]

DS9 might have been lightning in a bottle. They got so many seasons and so many episodes that we are discussing a character like Jake Sisko (which would be a toss away on any other show.) Though, its more than just quantity of a 24 episode season show that ran 7 years. Plenty of shows ran on 24 episode season schedules and couldn't touch what was accomplished here. Though, if you dig in a bit you can see many writers came over from TNG that ran 24 eps for 7 seasons itself. Thats a lot of experience, world building, consistency carried over. You'd be hard pressed to think of similar examples... Maybe, Breaking Bad into Better Call Saul?

 

[Ryujin]

DS9 might have been lightning in a bottle. They got so many seasons and so many episodes that we are discussing a character like Jake Sisko (which would be a toss away on any other show.) Though, its more than just quantity of a 24 episode season show that ran 7 years. Plenty of shows ran on 24 episode season schedules and couldn't touch what was accomplished here. Though, if you dig in a bit you can see many writers came over from TNG that ran 24 eps for 7 seasons itself. Thats a lot of experience, world building, consistency carried over. You'd be hard pressed to think of similar examples... Maybe, Breaking Bad into Better Call Saul?

DS9 managed to make the pining of a puddle of goo for a reformed terrorist into compelling TV. That's damned amazing.

 

[Gradine]

We're almost through the first three seasons of our re-watch (we never made it past season 4 our first try through, mostly because my wife was spoiled on what happens to Jadzia and got so upset she crashed out; she's committed to getting over it this time around). Some scattered thoughts:

• We both have been enjoying a lot of the universally regarded aggressively bad episodes. Run Along Home is a personal favorite of ours. They really lean into the goofy and camp in a way that I don't think TNG gets away with nearly as well.
• Speaking of "goofy" and "camp" I would like a dozen more episodes in the mirror universe please. The cast is having so much fun that it's absolutely infectious. Garak being paradoxically the most boring mirror character is (a) most certainly intentional and (b) genius. Avery Brooks having so much fun playing regular Sisko having so much fun playing mirror Sisko is like campception. 10/10, no notes.
• I love Julian Bashir, which is often but not always about how much I love to hate Julian Bashir. His early insufferability is ironically one of his most endearing traits. Lowkey one of the funniest moments in the show so far is when everyone is complaining about the obnoxious self-aggrandizing terraformer and Bashir walks up grinning like "what a fascinating individual!" It's beautiful, 10/10, no notes.
• Quark episodes almost universally rule. Our favorites so far is when Quark gets to speedrun the plot of Casablanca and one of the most recent ones we've seen so far, where Quark saves himself and the Grand Nagus from being made benevolent by the prophets through the ancient art of annoying the crap out of them.
• Sisko: "You're investigating Quark?"
  Odo: "...I always investigate Quark."
  10/10, no notes.
• Not only is Keiko fine but she could honestly do way better than Miles. And I like Miles! Molly is also the most adorable.
• Speaking of character development, I feel the one that has gotten the least so far Jadzia, which honestly makes at least some sense. She's lived seven eight lifetimes! That's a lot of arcs to complete!
• I love Lwaxana so damn much, it's so incredible she gets to be an obvious comic relief most of the time but also have these incredibly deep moments of emotional vulnerability makes her probably one of my favorite recurring Star Trek characters. Sisko being entirely over this crap during the party he throws while the Lwaxana is projecting love pheremones or whatever is priceless. Also, nobody has ever gone harder with any line ever than Lwaxana dropping "I can swim." An absolute icon.
• Vedek Winn and Gul Dukat both make such excellent villains because they are both so frustratingly real. We know people like this. Historically and contemporaneously.
• Speaking of Gul Dukat, the Riker episode is brilliant and the reason why has absolutely nothing to do with Riker himself. The politically situation on Cardassia is easily one of the most interesting (and consequential) undercurrents on the show and I don't see that changing in any way.

 

[jian]

It’s a common joke at our table that as soon as Sisko gets to go to the Mirror Universe he immediately has sex with his coworkers with no consequences. Says a lot about him.

Cardassia is indeed a fantastic setting (so much more so than Bajor, sorry not sorry Bajor) because it’s such a rigid and controlling culture that goes through about three Chinese dynasties’ worth of upheaval in 7 years. And it’s cataclysmic and horrible (and mostly Dukat’s fault) but it’s fascinating. Other worlds in ST could use this kind of deep dive, Romulus for instance.