Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
That works just fine with an older and more experienced apprentice. Its the 15 years old thing that's the realy kicker with this situation.Drowbane said:
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Star Wars: How to seperate the Padawan from the Master
- Thread starter Corsair
- Start date
Khorod
First Post
What is the course of study for a Jedi the masters intend to train as a Knight?
My instinct is to say that around 13, you are still being taught the moral value of restraint and how to handle lifting pears with maximum delicacy. You try to do much more than that, and your master slaps you down.
At 15 he teaches you to Jump Good.
At 18 or so, the Mystery Cult lets you out into the real world again in controlled doses, so you can compare yourself to the outside and the masters can observe how the lessons have taken.
Not all Jedi become knights, some join the AgriCore. Why? Well, for a Jedi, being the guy with a lightsaber in charge of the killing has to be the most morally trying role to play.
In any case, based on the above thoughts, it sounds like this 15 year old padawan is about 6-7 years precocious. That's about fine, but precocious that is humored seems to cause problems... because precocious does not mean complete maturity or early promotion. And that's where Vader comes in.
My instinct is to say that around 13, you are still being taught the moral value of restraint and how to handle lifting pears with maximum delicacy. You try to do much more than that, and your master slaps you down.
At 15 he teaches you to Jump Good.
At 18 or so, the Mystery Cult lets you out into the real world again in controlled doses, so you can compare yourself to the outside and the masters can observe how the lessons have taken.
Not all Jedi become knights, some join the AgriCore. Why? Well, for a Jedi, being the guy with a lightsaber in charge of the killing has to be the most morally trying role to play.
In any case, based on the above thoughts, it sounds like this 15 year old padawan is about 6-7 years precocious. That's about fine, but precocious that is humored seems to cause problems... because precocious does not mean complete maturity or early promotion. And that's where Vader comes in.
AmorphousBlob
First Post
Actually, I have a book in my hand right now that says 13 is actually too old to become a padawan. Jedi Apprentice #1: The Rising Force is the story of how Obi-Wan became Qui-Gon's padawan, and it starts out with Obi-Wan about to be shipped off to the agri-corps because he's about to turn 13 and hasn't been accepted by a master yet. During the book he winds up helping Qui-Gon, and they form a bond. I know this is EU, and that makes it easy to throw out the window, but I still think that it's a pretty good little story to remember.wingsandsword said:
The '13' figure was postulated before George Lucas established that Jedi initiates become the Padawan learner to a Jedi when they're aged seven or eight -- on the Episode I DVD commentary, also mentioned in Inside the Worlds of Attack of the Clones. (PotJS's suggestion that 13 is young, which contradicts the early Jedi Apprentice books where the erroneous '13' figure comes from, seems a cheat for players who don't want their 1st-level Jedi PCs to be children.)
Where does the EU imply some coercion at times?
Dave Wolverton's Jedi Corps idea doesn't ring true to me at all: I think the Jedi finish training all the initiates, it would be far too dangerous to abandon half-trained students.
The Master–Padawan relationship is a big part of any Jedi's life: not to play it out in full is a great missed opportunity.
Where does the EU imply some coercion at times?
Dave Wolverton's Jedi Corps idea doesn't ring true to me at all: I think the Jedi finish training all the initiates, it would be far too dangerous to abandon half-trained students.
The Master–Padawan relationship is a big part of any Jedi's life: not to play it out in full is a great missed opportunity.
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wingsandsword
Legend
However you run Padawan selection is up to you, if you want to combine the various options and statements you could go like this:
Age 8: Younglings are first open to being taken as Padawan, many are taken as soon as they become available, or within a year or so.
Age 13: By this point, it's somewhat notable that a youngling hasn't been taken as a Padawan. If is is believed that no master will train them, they may be sent to a Service Corps, while if there is a master who wishes to take him but he already has a Padawan (or there is a shortage of available masters, ect.) he may stay officially "youngling" for a few more years, but unofficially accompany Jedi on expeditions outside the temple and beyond, possibly to prove their worth to a Master.
Age 18: The absolute upper limit, and only reachable by multiple extensions to deadlines. If a "youngling" (which by this age they hardly are) hasn't been selected, they are off to a Service Corps.
I actually like the Service Corps ideas, it fits very well with the post-Ruusan Jedi Order. The very strict, very inflexible order with the "We don't care that you've got more raw force potential than we've ever seen and you've got a Jedi Master offering to train you, you're not allowed in because you're over the minimum age" attitude.
The way I see it, given how incredibly rigid and picky the Order was at the time, especially by the time of the Battle of Naboo, many masters would be almost looking for reasons to turn down apprentices. Bureaucracy, deadlines, pride of selection and quiet shame of rejection. It sounds a lot like the hubris that tainted the Jedi Order towards the end (I'm certainly no Jedi basher, but the order had some serious internal problems, besides just Skywalker towards the end).
Too angry and feisty, too disrespectful, too prone to brawling. They are passing judgment on kids (anywhere from 8 to 18, sources vary) that seriously affects the rest of their lives. I'd imagine that a lot of Palpatine's Dark Side Adepts, Inquisitors, Emperor's Hands, and other lesser force users enthralled to him were recruited from disappointed and dejected former Younglings who had a grudge against the Order for not training them. Now, under the Emperor's New Order, their talents will finally be recognized and they'll recieve the training they deserve (or so they see it).
As a GM, I see it as a way for players to have force-sensitive characters who are citizens of the Republic who are not Jedi (their talent was discovered, they were trained, and passed over. Presumably many leave the Corps for normal civilian life. Also, after Order 66 and into the Rebellion and early New Republic Eras, it helps give a plot device of a NPC who knows about Jedi without having yet another lost Master in hiding: they were younglings who were shipped off to a service corps, quit as soon as they could/reached adulthood, and made their own way in the galaxy, so they know the basics of Jedi teachings, they are force-sensitive with basic force skills.
Age 8: Younglings are first open to being taken as Padawan, many are taken as soon as they become available, or within a year or so.
Age 13: By this point, it's somewhat notable that a youngling hasn't been taken as a Padawan. If is is believed that no master will train them, they may be sent to a Service Corps, while if there is a master who wishes to take him but he already has a Padawan (or there is a shortage of available masters, ect.) he may stay officially "youngling" for a few more years, but unofficially accompany Jedi on expeditions outside the temple and beyond, possibly to prove their worth to a Master.
Age 18: The absolute upper limit, and only reachable by multiple extensions to deadlines. If a "youngling" (which by this age they hardly are) hasn't been selected, they are off to a Service Corps.
I actually like the Service Corps ideas, it fits very well with the post-Ruusan Jedi Order. The very strict, very inflexible order with the "We don't care that you've got more raw force potential than we've ever seen and you've got a Jedi Master offering to train you, you're not allowed in because you're over the minimum age" attitude.
The way I see it, given how incredibly rigid and picky the Order was at the time, especially by the time of the Battle of Naboo, many masters would be almost looking for reasons to turn down apprentices. Bureaucracy, deadlines, pride of selection and quiet shame of rejection. It sounds a lot like the hubris that tainted the Jedi Order towards the end (I'm certainly no Jedi basher, but the order had some serious internal problems, besides just Skywalker towards the end).
Too angry and feisty, too disrespectful, too prone to brawling. They are passing judgment on kids (anywhere from 8 to 18, sources vary) that seriously affects the rest of their lives. I'd imagine that a lot of Palpatine's Dark Side Adepts, Inquisitors, Emperor's Hands, and other lesser force users enthralled to him were recruited from disappointed and dejected former Younglings who had a grudge against the Order for not training them. Now, under the Emperor's New Order, their talents will finally be recognized and they'll recieve the training they deserve (or so they see it).
As a GM, I see it as a way for players to have force-sensitive characters who are citizens of the Republic who are not Jedi (their talent was discovered, they were trained, and passed over. Presumably many leave the Corps for normal civilian life. Also, after Order 66 and into the Rebellion and early New Republic Eras, it helps give a plot device of a NPC who knows about Jedi without having yet another lost Master in hiding: they were younglings who were shipped off to a service corps, quit as soon as they could/reached adulthood, and made their own way in the galaxy, so they know the basics of Jedi teachings, they are force-sensitive with basic force skills.
I agree the story of Obi-Wan in early Jedi Apprentice can be reconciled with the normal age of becoming a Padawan (though I wouldn't use it in my campaign).
The Jedi don't reject older candidates for arbitrary reasons, but because older children develop attachments which could risk one of them turning to the dark side and returning the rule of the Sith. (WHich is exactly what happens.) For this very reason, releasing half-trained Jedi makes no sense: they're a threat to the galaxy.
The Jedi don't reject older candidates for arbitrary reasons, but because older children develop attachments which could risk one of them turning to the dark side and returning the rule of the Sith. (WHich is exactly what happens.) For this very reason, releasing half-trained Jedi makes no sense: they're a threat to the galaxy.
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