D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

[Victim]

Why does Darth Maul resort to kicking when he has a lightsaber?

Because he uses his saber to force his opponent to block, thus creating an opportunity to kick. It's less "resorting" and more a matter of taking what he can get.

 

[iwatt]

Why does Darth Maul resort to kicking when he has a lightsaber?

'cause it made him look cool?

 

[Sir Brennen]

'cause it made him look cool?

Actually, I think this is the best answer, and is really what many of the streamlined changes in the upcoming edition are all about: emulating the "Cool!" factor in the movies. Variety creates more interesting combats, whether in a pop-corn movie or in an RPG.

 

[pawsplay]

Because he uses his saber to force his opponent to block, thus creating an opportunity to kick. It's less "resorting" and more a matter of taking what he can get.

Exactly. This is one area where RPGs have historically been weak, real "attacks of opportunity." Presumably, people don't Force Choke all the time because it's not the best attack all the time. The same rationale for expending Force powers could logically apply as well to combat options.

I think it sounds clumsy. Forcing players to cycle through Force powers at a high rate doesn't strike me as particularly cool, nor anything that encourages resting for one minute on a frequent basis.

 

[Remathilis]

Keep in mind in AotC, how Dooku fights.

Round 1: Dooku fries Anakin with Force Lightning (1). Anakin probably knocked down some wound levels, but not out of hp.
Round 2: Dooku attacks Obi-Wan with FL (2), Obi absorbs it with saber.
Round 3-5: Obi/Dooku duel. Obi-Wan reduced to knocked out (probably with a crit). Anakin block Dooku's attack. Obi-Wan tosses Anakin his saber.
Round 6-8: Anakin/Dooku Duel. Dooku sunders one of Anakin's sabers. Anakin eventually gets some manner of crit and is disarmed (heh.)
Round 9: Yoda appears.
Round 10: Dooku uses Move Object to drop the Ceiling on Yoda. Contested Force duel (move Object). Yoda wins.
Round 11: Dooku shoots Yoda with Force Lightning (3). Yoda absorbs it.
Round 12: Dooku shoots Yoda again with FL (4). Yoda REBUKES it.
Round 13-16: Yoda/Dooku duel. Yoda proves him better, so Dooku uses his last Move Object to try and crush Anakin/Obi-Wan.
Round 17: Yoda stops the column from crushing Ani/Obi. Dooku Escape. Yoda uses Move Light Object to retrieve his stick.

Round Count Subjective. In one duel, Dooku used FL 4 times and Move Heavy Object 2 times. Yoda used Rebuke, Absorb, and Move Heavy Object 2 times. Thats 6 for Dooku (against thee foes) and 5 for Yoda. Between Talents, Force Points, and Maybe Dooku lucking out with a 20 on UtF, its easy for two high level FU to use his favorites that often.

Under the Old System, Dooku would have been toast before Yoda ever entered the room, and/or Anakin couldn't have contributed anything meaningful after the first FL. However, it seems easier to assume that this kind of duel is possible under SAGA.

That or thes R&D guys have some 'spainin' to do...

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

I like the new skill specialization (and I would like it also in dnd, better than the true20/UA implementation), it's supposed that you gain experience with levels so...

about skill specialization with talents/feat

one way to specialize skill w/out giving more skill bonus is to add an
Expert use only of skill (beyond the Trained only use)

(one example are the advanced force power that require specific talent to be acquired)

so while skill focus give a flat +5
you could have
Expert at Whatever (prerequisite skill focus): you can use the Whatever skill in new ways...... chose one (or 2 or...) of the following Expert uses
more: you can take 10 even under stress, you can do a trained task in half the time, ......

 

[SPoD]

All I can think of when I see the "Will Defense" line is, if this IS the future of 4E, then finally we will have some sort of integrated mental combat. I mean, think about it: the psionics mental combat stuff always was tacked on, ignored, and generally poorly integrated (when it wasn't overpowered, that is). But with this, direct mental attacks work exactly the same as physical ones. You could have psionic classes that have "Mental BAB" and the ability to make a mental attack at will for 1d6 damage + Cha. It would be easy, and balanced with the physical warriors from Day One.

Imagine taking the Warlock and turning the Eldritch Blast into Mental Blast, and suddenly psionics has the party role niche that it's always been lacking. Hell, I like that so much, I may not wait for 4E, I may add that into my game today!

EDIT: For that matter, I think the lessons learned from the Warlock and other "at will" classes are going to end up being all over the redesigned Jedi. Jedi in the movies more closely resemble Warlocks than any other D&D class in their ability to use their powers over and over again without needing to rest.

 

[Felon]

Thats not a system problem. To me it seems as if
a) Either the characters background and experience did not warrant the player putting ranks into the skills.
b) the player was too concerned with optimizing in order tp lee[ short list of skills maximized and ignored putting a rank or two in skill skills to round out things that the character might have picked up. In such a case, I consider it to be player attitude problem.

You seem to be concerned with character conceptualization here, whereas the innate skill bonus is provided for the not-so-lofty but decidedly practical concern of allowing the group as a whole to contribute to scenes instead sidlining everyone but one or two specialists. They provide some decent examples. They're ignoring the tree in order to get a good look at the forest.

Opining that a character who optimizes his skills has an "attitude problem" (i.e. badwrongfun) is unfair as all get out, and again ignores pragmatic concerns. Many skils require optimization, and a character often needs to be as good as he can be at the role he's filling. There's no such thing as a middling device disabler; trap DC's are often 25+, and you're either effective at it or you're not. And of course, many characters just don't have the skill points to be either well-rounded or optimized.

And to me this should not be the case. As far as I am concerned, level should be a general idea of how experienced the character is. IMO, there is nothing wrong with an experienced character not knowing how to ride or repair devices if does not fit their background or experiences and just being as unskilled as everyone else.

From what we've been told so far, the half-level bonus is there to represent general experience, to attempt the more basic uses of a skill. The more advanced applications of a skill are "trained-only" and thus remain the sole providence of specialists.

 

[Felon]

All I can think of when I see the "Will Defense" line is, if this IS the future of 4E, then finally we will have some sort of integrated mental combat. I mean, think about it: the psionics mental combat stuff always was tacked on, ignored, and generally poorly integrated (when it wasn't overpowered, that is). But with this, direct mental attacks work exactly the same as physical ones. You could have psionic classes that have "Mental BAB" and the ability to make a mental attack at will for 1d6 damage + Cha. It would be easy, and balanced with the physical warriors from Day One.

Well, you'll be able to make an attack against a Will save instead of forcing the target to make a saving throw. I'm not sure that's any real improvement. Will there be pieces of mental armor? Mental shields? Mental weapons?

Psionics was always tacked-on because it's a tacked-on concept. You can do pretty much anything with spells. You can read thoughts, predict the future, control minds, and teleknetically move objects. A character could focus on these spells and easily be considered a mentalist of sorts. Of course, he wouldn't be confused with a 3rd-edition psionicist because they're way to busy laying down ubernukes to do any of that cliched clairvoyance junk.

It is interesting to use psionics as a way to employ new techniques with resource expenditure, and in that respect I agree they've been mishandled.

EDIT: For that matter, I think the lessons learned from the Warlock and other "at will" classes are going to end up being all over the redesigned Jedi. Jedi in the movies more closely resemble Warlocks than any other D&D class in their ability to use their powers over and over again without needing to rest.

I think the preview directly indicates they're actively avoiding the one-trick-pony pitfall that the warlock often finds himself in. They want the jedi to deplete and reshuffle his powers, and I think that works OK. To my recollection most jedi don't use their force powers constantly. They occasionally push or pull an object or opponent, but usually they're mixing it up physically. Guys like Dooku and Yoda are gonna kinda be above the mean, median, and mode by quite a bit.

 

[Gentlegamer]

You seem to be concerned with character conceptualization here, whereas the innate skill bonus is provided for the not-so-lofty but decidedly practical concern of allowing the group as a whole to contribute to scenes instead sidlining everyone but one or two specialists. They provide some decent examples.

A fantastic example they didn't use was from The Empire Strikes Back. Pursued by the Imperial fleet, Han and Chewie are desperately trying to get the hyperdrive working. Yet, the Falcon is still evading the pursuing TIE Fighters. Who is piloting? The auto-pilot? Nope! It's Princess Leia!

That's not a laser blast. Something hit us.

Han! Get up here!