D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, it's kind of like asking a turtle to tumble. It's not a matter of proficiency, it's a matter of literal physical capability.

 

[hong]

What if they do? We don't know.

As for a -4 Dex penalty, that's just ridiculous. I'm not buying that Jabba has a Dex of 2.

I don't think you'll see a better exemplar of Dex 2 than Jabba, actually.

Well, I guess there's gelatinous cubes....

 

[Reaper Steve]

Hi all,
I've been following the development of SW Saga edition (through the info released by Wizards), so I'm glad I found this thread. Like many others in this thread, I am excited for this product primarily because I hope that it is the springboard for D&D 4e. This product seems to be taking d20 in the direction that will respark my games.

With one minor exception, I am thrilled by all the changes. I think the grouped skills are great, and I like that all skills improve with level. Trained and Skill focus are great and I think the new system will provide all the granularity needed.

I love Initative being a skill that can improve and I'm glad to see all the senses merged into Perception. (I remember when Dragon magazine introduced Perception as a AD&D ability score way back in the day...it only took 20 more years for it to evolve into a d20 skill!) However, my minor gripe, like many others, is that Sense Motive doesn't fit...it should be a part of Deception or Persuasion (reasoning: if you can deceive or persuade, then you can probably tell when someone is trying to do the same to you.) No biggie, that should be an easy house rule.

For the life of me, I can't figure out how armor works from the info released so far. Some of the sample characters statted up that wear armor show a decrease in their Reflex save, probably to account to the armor's encumbrance. However, I don't see an increase in Fort save or Threshold or any mention anywhere else of how the armor actually protects the character. Am I missing something, or can we just not piece it together until they give a combat preview?

 

[nerfherder]

For the life of me, I can't figure out how armor works from the info released so far. Some of the sample characters statted up that wear armor show a decrease in their Reflex save, probably to account to the armor's encumbrance. However, I don't see an increase in Fort save or Threshold or any mention anywhere else of how the armor actually protects the character. Am I missing something, or can we just not piece it together until they give a combat preview?

Wiz_o_Hutt has mentioned that there were some typos in the preview stats - Han gets +2 Fort Defense and Threshold when wearing Stormtrooper armour, for instance. There is also another mechanic at play, but he will only hint at it.

One thing I find exciting from a 4E point of view is that a strong hint has been dropped on the Wizards board that Grappling has been re-written and streamlined...

 

[Janx]

However, my minor gripe, like many others, is that Sense Motive doesn't fit...it should be a part of Deception or Persuasion (reasoning: if you can deceive or persuade, then you can probably tell when someone is trying to do the same to you.) No biggie, that should be an easy house rule.

I would disagree with this assumption. While hollywood may portray con-men as "never con a con", the reality is that deception and persuasion are "sending" skills, and perception is a "receiving" skill. You'd be surprised at how many people can't send and receieve at the same time. Generally, if you're focused on convinving somebody else, you're probably not listening. If you're not listening, you're probably not paying close attention to it (one might argue that you can't be swayed by arguments if your busy pushing your own argument).

Overall though, I'm fine with Perception being the Sense Motive skill. Fact is, I never liked the Sense motive skill anyway (I come from the old school of your brain is your PC's brain, and if you can't be charming, don't play a charmer).

 

[AllisterH]

I don't think it's completely unfair to describe the martial maneuvers system as Vancian magic lite. Sure, you get all your maneuvers back at the start of each encounter, and can even recover them in combat through one kind of action or another, but it's still got that weird, counter-logical angle where, after you've expended the ability, it becomes mysteriously unusable for a while. And it's not because you've become too exhausted to use it, since you can still use other maneuvers, even higher-level ones. Not to mention the weirdness of not being able to use maneuvers you've known for several levels and were just using yesterday, simply because you didn't "ready" them today.

It's still a nice little subsystem and definitely less suffocating that real Vancian magic, but there are some weird little similarities that seem out of place in a martial arts system.

Actually, I think it is more a case of "flavour". Remember, Mearls pointed out that you can have just 9th level manoeuvers available so it can't be a balancing feature that you expend manoeuvers.

IIRC, he mentioned that it was to mimic what you see in Western action movies, wuxia films, videogames et al where people mix up their style of combat. They try special move A, that doesn't work, try special move B, etc etc which is why each manoeuver is expended.

If this does use the manoeuver system of Bo9S, then you basically can use any manoeuver once every 2 rounds so basically you can more closely match your typical Jedi fight.

 

[wingsandsword]

While hollywood may portray con-men as "never con a con", the reality is that deception and persuasion are "sending" skills, and perception is a "receiving" skill. You'd be surprised at how many people can't send and receieve at the same time. Generally, if you're focused on convinving somebody else, you're probably not listening. If you're not listening, you're probably not paying close attention to it (one might argue that you can't be swayed by arguments if your busy pushing your own argument).

The problem is, this isn't about trying to portray reality, it's about trying to portray Star Wars. Hollywood may portray con men like that, and we are trying to recreate the world of a hollywood movie, not a highly accurate simulation of human psychology and sociology.

 

[pawsplay]

Whyever not? He's a slug, with flabby, unco-ordinated arms, who barely moves. I'm generous if I don't suggest he has a Dex of 1 !

That's ridiculous. He regularly wins initiative, for one thing, and I would wager he can pilot. I guess it's an open question whether he can use a blaster, but some Hutts certainly do (in the EU anyway). That's the Dex of a gelatinous cube. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest he is marginally better at sleight of hand than a gelatinous cube.

 

[Henry]

That's ridiculous. He regularly wins initiative, for one thing, and I would wager he can pilot. I guess it's an open question whether he can use a blaster, but some Hutts certainly do (in the EU anyway). That's the Dex of a gelatinous cube. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest he is marginally better at sleight of hand than a gelatinous cube.

JABBA?!?!?! Mr. "I'm going to move at a snail's pace, let Han walk on my back without reacting, and lay on a pallet and be shoved around all day" Hutt? Maybe in some Expanded Universe stuff or something, but the Jabba from the movies I remember was a master of money and manipulation, not any sort of physical dexterity.

 

[pawsplay]

JABBA?!?!?! Mr. "I'm going to move at a snail's pace, let Han walk on my back without reacting, and lay on a pallet and be shoved around all day" Hutt? Maybe in some Expanded Universe stuff or something, but the Jabba from the movies I remember was a master of money and manipulation, not any sort of physical dexterity.

We are not talking mastery. We are simply talking more dexterity than a gelatinous cube. In the movies, we see him:

- win initiative twice
- operate several hidden switches quickly
- deftly kill small creatures
- grapple Princess Leia (once successfully, once not)
- Hide and Move Silently (in the throne room)

So I'd say his Dex simply cannot be lower than 8, and it's probably 10 or 12.