Star Wars Saga, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Vigilance]

Your post wasn't a rebuttal submitted for my consideration, so there wasn't anything to dismiss. You were dismissing me, and seemed quite content to do so, and everyone else who thinks they can make educated esitimations about class balance. So glass houses and all that jazz.

What playtesting does more than anything is see how much people like the new stuff. It's a focus group more than anything. For instance, in 3.0's development magic missile was being considered for revision into an attack that allowed a Reflex save. It did a bit more damage, and the designers' comment was probably more balanced than a no-save effect.--but they say players hated it.

I dismissed you because you proved you know absolutely nothing about rules design. Either you can read things and pick out balance, or playtesting is vitally important.

I have a real good eye for rules, but Ive found time and again that things I didnt think were unbalanced, actually were. And I only noticed this in playtesting.

It's not just a focus group.

And Im not dismissing everyone who thinks they can make an educated guess at balance. Of course you can. Im dismissing the notion that you can add up a class like a math formula, which was what you were saying.

What I said was, you have read the book, and others have playtested it.

Im going to roll with the judgement of folks who have played it over someone who hasn't.

I can look at a movie trailer and make an educated guess whether or not it would be good without seeing it. But if I argued with someone who HAD seen it about how well made it was, that would be pretty dumb.

 

[Allensh]

Some people said if I want to play beyond 20, then I shouldn't play Star Wars. Well, thats not really the point. The problem is you have a resource that is level dependent but then at 20th level you have no way to ever regain this resource. So if a non-Jedi character (or a Jedi who did not take the ability to reclaim his spent force points) gets to 20th level and uses up all their force points, what are they supposed to do? They are just permanently handicapped? This is a logic flaw in the game itself. And in my opinion its a pretty serious flaw.

I don't necessarily need rules for play beyond 20th level, but they do need to address the problem of 20th level characters restoring spent force points. Or revise the rules to make Force Points a per session resource, or a resource that recovers over time (per day, or whatnot). Which is how it should be in my opinion.

But the rest of the rules rock. I like the feat and talent system (although I think you could have taken it a step further and just made the whole system classless). I love the starship combat rules. I like the way the force works, although I think you should be able to meditate for a round and reclaim a spent force power like the Sword Sage can in ToB, also if you think about Qui-Gon Jin meditating during his fight with Darth Maul, it would even fit the movies well.

Bottom line, is despite the flaws I think this is better than the first two incarnations of d20 SW, and with my house rules, better than even WEG SW. And that is high praise from me.

The authors have not only gotten me excited about playing SW again, but now I'm seriously interested in picking up SW minis for both characters and starships. So again WotC, kudos on making some good product tie-ins.

You could always continue the progression of experience points past level 20 solely for the purpose of regaining Force points. I wouldn't be that surprised to see some kind of mechanic for this. Myself, if I had a character that attained 20th level, I'd probably just have him become one with the Force and start a new one.

Allen

 

[Felon]

I dismissed you because you proved you know absolutely nothing about rules design. Either you can read things and pick out balance, or playtesting is vitally important.

Well, you're a surly little fellow today aren't you?

Your attitude was dismisive and hostile before we even got into the matter of playtesting.

And Im not dismissing everyone who thinks they can make an educated guess at balance. Of course you can. Im dismissing the notion that you can add up a class like a math formula, which was what you were saying.

You did in fact say that eyeballing balance was a skill that "almost nobody" has. Now you're acknowledging that it's entirely possible.

Not that I mind the shift in position, mind you. There certainly are flat quantifiables within a class, such as hit points, BAB, and trained skills. It's a math exercisie to weigh how the scout makes out compared to otehrs.. If you want to argue that the scoundrel makes up the shortfall somewhere ekse, and that it will blossom to reveal itself during actual play, I'd entertain if not agree with it, as I've done with others above.

But if all you've got are bad manners to fuel your side of the discussion, I'll just report your rudeness and move on.

 

[Felon]

Also, Scouts as members of societies that are highly self-sufficient.

Exactly, that's what I meant when I said it made sense.

 

[Felon]

Well, initiative is a skill, so there is skill training and skill focus feats, right?

Right, but being able to attempt a feint as a move action would help the scoundrel to milk his sneak attack within a single round as part of a one-two combo. I didn't see anything in the description of feinting to indicate it was melee only either.

 

[Felon]

Similarly, I can argue that the Scout's need to train in Endurance to get their starting feat reduces the value of both their feats and their number of trained skills.

I wanted to sit down and look at Endurance for a while before replying to this. Endurance seem like a pretty suboptimal feat for a scout, and it doesn't act as a gateway to any feats other than Extra Second Wind. Which does turn it into a matter of personal choice here: do you want another second wind more than you want to train some other skill on the scout's list? If you opt for the former, you come out one feat ahead of the scout. If not, you can pass on the feat and come out ahead on skills with the same number of starter feats, and I'd suggest that WF with rifles is as much of an offensive boost as Point Blank Shot, as rifles serve up a damage and range increment boost. Either way, I'd say you're ahead of the scoundrel's game and that's without even taking hit dice into account.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Right, but being able to attempt a feint as a move action would help the scoundrel to milk his sneak attack within a single round as part of a one-two combo.

Which is counter to the increased duration of combat that the new ruleset encourages. Thus, leaving it out becomes a conscious design decision to keep damage lower and lower the value of the sneak attack talents. This is a good thing, since it encourages scoundrels to take all those other juicy talents they have access to.

I wanted to sit down and look at Endurance for a while before replying to this. Endurance seem like a pretty suboptimal feat for a scout, and it doesn't act as a gateway to any feats other than Extra Second Wind. Which does turn it into a matter of personal choice here: do you want another second wind more than you want to train some other skill on the scout's list? If you opt for the former, you come out one feat ahead of the scout. If not, you can pass on the feat and come out ahead on skills with the same number of starter feats, and I'd suggest that WF with rifles is as much of an offensive boost as Point Blank Shot, as rifles serve up a damage and range increment boost. Either way, I'd say you're ahead of the scoundrel's game and that's without even taking hit dice into account.

Have you actually opened the book? Nothing in this statement accurately reflects any of the mechanics it purports to talk about.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Vigilance and Felon - it seems that you two guys are having problems communicating well at the moment.

As a result I must ask you not to reply to each other in this thread again, OK? Feel free to continue posting about things you think are good, bad or ugly, just don't reply to each other.

Thanks.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Right, but being able to attempt a feint as a move action would help the scoundrel to milk his sneak attack within a single round as part of a one-two combo. I didn't see anything in the description of feinting to indicate it was melee only either.

Doh! I even quoted you saying 'Improved Feint' but my brain interpreted it as 'Improved Initiative'. If you'd said 'Improved Initiative' my comment would have made sense, but as it is my comment is complete rubbish

 

[wingsandsword]

To me, it's a trivial thing at best. If my players get their characters to 20th level in my campaign, it's time for a new campaign.

Cheers,
Cam

Same, given how rare 20th level characters are in Star Wars, if you've got an entire party of 20th level PC's you probably should be starting a new campaign.

All versions of the rules to date, only Yoda and Palpatine are 20th level, although Legacy-era Luke Skywalker is probably 20th level too. Even Darth Vader was only 19th level, and Mace Windu was 18th level.

If you've got an entire party of 20th level PC's, you really should be moving along, just like in D&D if you've got a party of heroes that is each one more powerful than the most legendary heroes of the galaxy, it's definitely time to move along with a new campaign.

If Force Points not replenishing at 20th level is that much of an issue to you and you really want to keep going at 20th level, the simplest solution is to just periodically replenish Force Points every few sessions.